KIN

Kristy (00:00)
Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon.

Jon (00:11)
And that's me. In each episode, we dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and unexpected insights on all the books Kristy just has to make me read.

Kristy (00:21)
We're here to explore everything from your book club favorites to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun.

Jon (00:30)
So settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Kristy (00:45)
Hello listeners and welcome to season five, episode four of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host, Kristy

Jon King-Pritzl (00:51)
And I'm Jon I'm the co host, the husband that gets forced to read all of the books.

Kristy (00:57)
This week we're talking about Kin by Tayari Jones.

I was really excited to include this one in our season five lineup because I feel like some of the best conversations we've had on the podcast have been around historical fiction novels. And this one is different than anything we've read. It's set in

The Jim Crow South and then revolves around the lives of these two young women and their journey. And I just love stories about people who seemingly start off in the same place and then go off in completely different directions and then hearing about their journey. And this book is both of those things.

Jon King-Pritzl (01:32)
Yeah, I guess I hadn't reflected on the fact that we have had some pretty good conversations around other historical fiction also feel like we have good conversations whenever there are characters that have like interpersonal relationships. I feel like we have really good conversations too, which these two characters obviously have. So it'll be interesting to see how this one pans out.

Kristy (01:52)
so why did I pick this

book for Jon I've already kind of said this, but I do feel like some of the best conversations we've had have been around historical fiction

novels. This is a character-driven book, which Jon has said he has liked, but we are actually slowly uncovering that he still needs some plot going on. So

I'm not sure this met the bar for that, but and we'll talk about that. But that was originally why I picked it going in. And then Tayari Jones is a new author to us, which was a big focus of this season of the podcast

Jon King-Pritzl (02:29)
Yeah, that definitely came through in this book. which before we get into all that, just a reminder for everyone of what's coming up after this book. So what are the next two books Kristy has stacked on my shelf for me to read? It's Whistler by Ann Patchett and Her Last Breath by Taylor Adams.

Kristy (02:47)
Yeah, so I'm currently reading Whistler. I'm absolutely loving it. Another character-driven book.

Jon King-Pritzl (02:53)
Yeah.

Kristy (02:54)
We'll see how you feel about it, but I'm very much enjoying it. The audio is actually by Ann Patchett herself, which I think is really, really special. And excited for that conversation and what will come of that. And then her last breath, I have not read.

I have actually never read anything by Taylor Adams, but I was searching

Jon King-Pritzl (03:13)
Ooh.

Kristy (03:13)
for a new release for this year. I was searching for an author we haven't done. I read the summary to this. I read some of the reviews. It made me completely anxious. So I don't I think it'll be the best kind of thriller. Yes.

Jon King-Pritzl (03:27)
it's a thriller. Okay. All

right. Cool. Well, that is my favorite genre.

And hey, make sure to drop us a line on either Instagram, TikTok, or s shoot us an email at books I make my husband read at gmail dot com. and you can keep up on all the other episodes that are coming up this season. By episodes I mean books.

Kristy (03:45)
Yes. And be sure if you are listening on Apple Podcast or Spotify that you please rate and review our show. It's the best free thing you can do for us and it does help other people find our show.

Jon King-Pritzl (03:56)
It does. Okay. So this part of the show is the spoiler free book summary. For those who may not be familiar with this book, we'll give you a little snippet on what it's about before we get into spoiler territory. So hit it.

Kristy (04:08)
Vernice and Annie grew up next door to each other in Honeysuckle, Louisiana, bound together by proximity, by friendship, and by the particular kind of understanding that comes from two people who both know what it is to lose a mother.

From that shared starting point, their lives move in completely different directions.

Jon King-Pritzl (04:26)
Vernice leaves for Spelman College, where she steps into a sisterhood of powerfully connected women, marries into an affluent family, and builds something that from the outside looks like a solid life.

Annie, on the other hand, chases her absent mother into a world of danger, love, and a fight to survive.

Kristy (04:48)
Tayari Jones uses Honeysuckle, Louisiana as more than a setting. The time and place carry the full weight of segregation, race, class, and what it meant to be a Black woman in the American South. And Jones doesn't flinch from any of it. The story is told in alternating voices, and one of the things she does so well is give each woman a voice so specific you never once forget whose story you're in.

Jon King-Pritzl (05:10)
Kin is a story about these two women whose lives could not look more different, and the bond between them that neither distance nor time nor tragedy could fully break is thought provoking, evocative, and the kind of historical fiction that feels entirely alive. Alive. Whoa. Sorry, that was probably inappropriate for this kind of story.

okay.

That was that book summary. Now, Here is the spoiler alert. Folks, while we may not consider y'all cradle sisters like Annie and Vernice, we do consider you our found family. So if you haven't read it yet, it's time to part ways until we find each other again.

Kristy (05:55)
All right,

let's talk about our thoughts on the book. You can go first this week.

Jon King-Pritzl (06:01)
Okay, my thoughts on this book. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was out of left field from other books that you've had me read. It is a historical fiction. You've had me read other ones like that before. But this one definitely felt different because of the environment and because of the the characters. And it really it hit. It just hit differently. I appreciated the narration. I appreciated the

the voice acting. We I listened to it this one on audiobooks. The characters and the characters in the South in that time period was just very I don't want to go so far as to say eye opening because obviously I know about it, read about it, you know, etc. But hearing stories and hearing like

Characters live through it, just hit differently. And I I appreciated that about this pick. I did mention to you afterwards that I struggled a little bit getting through, not because I wasn't enjoying the book or I wasn't enjoying the characters, I am sort of finding that while I love character-driven books, I do also like

Kristy (07:07)
In air quotes.

Jon King-Pritzl (07:09)
And air quote I d I can, I

Kristy (07:09)
I don't think you can really say that anymore.

Jon King-Pritzl (07:12)
will, I will continue to say that my to my dying breath I do really enjoy the character stories, but like I

Kristy (07:17)
Think you enjoy

well-developed characters within a story that has a full climax plot conclusion. Like you want that in a story and you want f fully developed characters. I think to say I like character-driven stories is different because a lot of those times those stories aren't leading anywhere. They're just

Jon King-Pritzl (07:41)
Yeah.

Kristy (07:42)
on a journey like a journey that's not doesn't have a conclusion. This just happened

Jon King-Pritzl (07:45)
Yeah.

Kristy (07:46)
during this period of time that we're writing about.

Jon King-Pritzl (07:49)
Fair, fair. I'll have to reevaluate my myself from that.

Kristy (07:53)
I'll take it under advisement.

Jon King-Pritzl (07:55)
Yes. but I I think in general, and I won't go too deep into the rest of the books. I know you've got quite more specific questions to talk about, but I I

Kristy (08:02)
No, I love that

you just open up every time and just tell me everything about the book.

Jon King-Pritzl (08:07)
We could just stop the podcast there and just leave the questions out. I gave it four stars. was kind of on the fence personally, a little bit between a f four and a five, but I think for me I gave it four because of that like underlying subconscious need for plot arc or something underneath the the characters. So

Kristy (08:26)
Arc, thank you. I couldn't think of the word earlier.

I debated between four and five as well, and I actually still

internally think it's somewhere between there. I think the writing absolutely deserves five stars. As I mentioned, this was my first book by Tayari Jones, and I think the writing was extraordinary.

the ending landed a little softer than I expected it to. I felt I've read I don't want to say I've read stories like this before, but I've read stories where you know you have two people start off in the same spot, go on on different paths, ultimately something tragic happens to one of them based on the choices they make. So I felt we were headed in that direction. So when we got there.

I felt a little underwhelmed by it. And I don't know that that's the writer's fault. I think that I just I read a lot. I was expecting it. And that was maybe like the one thing in my mind keeping me from giving it the five stars. That may be unfair, but I still think it's somewhere in between there. I don't think I really need to land on a specific one.

Jon King-Pritzl (09:35)
Yeah. That actually what you just said too reminded me of something also when I went into this book, I I thought it would be a little bit more of like their paths would diverge and then converge again and then like

Kristy (09:47)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (09:48)
diverge again before they came back again at the ending, but it was more of just like a one time divergence and then they came together at the end. So I was

Kristy (09:54)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (09:55)
expecting a little bit more dynamic crossover. crossover's not right, but that's kind of what I thought.

Going in.

Kristy (10:01)
Yeah.

All right, let's transition to some of the questions.

Jon King-Pritzl (10:05)
Okay.

Kristy (10:06)
So Vernice and Annie are raised nearly side by side, and then their lives go in completely different directions.

As you were reading, did you find yourself invested in one of the characters' stories versus the other one? Invested more in one of their stories.

Jon King-Pritzl (10:20)
I don't think in invested necessarily. I think I could

relate for lack of a better word to Vernice's journey than Annie's.

I've just I've never struggled the way Annie struggled in any sort of capacity through my life. So I found myself drawn to her character and f feeling for that character, but I think I just understood Vernice's journey maybe a little bit more. I don't know. Is that is that kind of what you're asking? Is that how you're

Kristy (10:48)
No, just

just meaning that when you were reading were you like, I'm enjoying Annie's character more, I'm enjoying Niecy's character more, I I wanna get back to that chapter, I wanna hear more about that.

Jon King-Pritzl (10:59)
Mm. No, neither is one more than the other. I I enjoyed both. They were so dramatically different that I was invested in them for different reasons.

Kristy (11:09)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (11:10)
And yeah, not one more than the other. Did you find yourself drawn towards one more than the other?

Kristy (11:15)
I think what you were trying to say when you opened up was that I was enjoying Niecy's story more because it was her finding herself. It was exploring. It was, you know, living in this new world and circumstance that other than what she grew up in and really spreading her wings, where Annie's is

in my opinion, like you could tell it was going it was likely going to end tragically. Like she's searching for something that even if she finds, she's probably going to be disappointed by. She's searching for her mother. She doesn't know at this point if her mother is even alive or not. Her mother left her as a fair young baby, child. And it wasn't that I didn't enjoy hearing her story, 'cause I certainly did, but I felt probably I was already had my heart

broken for her early on because she just makes these it's really even hard to call them bad choices because she's driven by something that she's just can't get out of her own way to try to find. And and that's really hard. I mean she just she wanted to see her to find her mom. She wanted to know why her mom left her. She wanted to you know feel loved and cherished cherished as a child and

It was really hard for her to break free from that and find happiness in anything else.

Jon King-Pritzl (12:35)
I think you're probably on to something there. I think Niecy's character was definitely more forward looking and you know, wanting to branch out and away from the life that she grew up from and wanting something different and trying to discover who she was, as a as a person. where Annie's character was very kind of backwards looking, trying to find

Kristy (12:57)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (12:57)
the past that she thought she'd lost and

trying to reclaim it. And I think that was frustrating, even to some degree. Like you have the handful of people in your in your circle who continue to tell you that like this person probably doesn't want to be found. Why are you

Kristy (13:14)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (13:15)
wasting your time, you know, or whatever. and frustrating that she wasn't listening to those people. And you just kind of wonder like if she had, would her journey how different her journey might have been?

Kristy (13:27)
Yeah.

I have some character specific questions. So, like, I'll move on. Just I want to unpack some of what you're saying, but I think that we'll just do that. But

let's switch to Niecy So she built a life that looks successful by any means from the outside. She goes to Spellman College. She ends up marrying this affluent man, and that gives her social standing. And for all intents and purposes, ends up with you know a pretty caring mother in law.

Did you find yourself rooting for her or did you feel that was maybe not true to who she was as a person?

Jon King-Pritzl (14:04)
Yeah, I mean I think you stole the words right out of

Kristy (14:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jon King-Pritzl (14:07)
my mouth. I don't think she was being true to who she was, but at the same time,

I don't think that the era or the world or area, I guess I should say instead of era, was ready for who she really who she was or comfortable with her being her true self and so she know, followed this path that she thought she was supposed to follow.

She was supposed to get married. She was supposed to have kids. She was supposed to do all these things, which we've talked about in many episodes before about, you know, kind of our own individual journeys and for me in particular about having to sort of decouple the idea of who I thought I was supposed to be and before I could like kind of find out who who I was. I think Vernice struggled with that too, but you know.

in the South in that time of period, it did not appear to be like that would be a very acceptable life choice for her.

Kristy (14:59)
Well, and it's so different the life she ends up is so different than where she came from in Honeysuckle, Louisiana. I mean, very much still, you know, segregation is the law of the land. She grew up seemingly without a lot of means. It sounds like her and her aunt had what they needed,

And then she ends up marrying into this wealthy Black family that is very different from the life that you know she grew up. And I'm not going to begin to say or even think that I'm an expert in like what the Jim Crow South looked like.

But I imagine a small town in Honeysuckle, Louisiana, is very different than Atlanta, Georgia and the suburbs there and you know what what a wealthy Black family has there versus what they had in like a small town and what that's like. So I just think it ends up being this completely new experience for her. And then also when we talk about being true to herself, she her first roommate.

which is a woman, like they end up in a relationship with each other and really you know, love each other.

Joette wants them to come out and be a couple together. And for Niecy that's just not a reality. And to your point, like with the era, not even taking race into consideration. Like that's just

wouldn't have been acceptable. Or accept accepted.

Jon King-Pritzl (16:19)
Yeah, and

accepted, yeah. And she had her two aunts, were they? The who were also kind of in like a closeted relationship and

Kristy (16:30)
I think

they called them aunt aunties, but I don't think they were yeah. 'Cause her aunt was

Jon King-Pritzl (16:33)
Not through blood, yeah.

Kristy (16:37)
who raised her, which was her mother's sister. But the aunties were yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (16:40)
Right.

One was her school teacher and so

Kristy (16:44)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (16:44)
some something else.

Kristy (16:45)
But yes, they were and and were s in a small town that people left them alone, but they weren't out and married.

Jon King-Pritzl (16:52)
Right. Right. And so I think she had that. I think she was happy for them, but I think she also she she saw what they had to sort of hide and struggle with and I don't think she

Kristy (17:03)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (17:03)
wanted that for herself.

Kristy (17:04)
Right.

All right, so Annie's path is much harder and much more dangerous. How did you f feel following her through that? Was it hard to read, or do you feel like those chapters pulled you into her story?

Jon King-Pritzl (17:17)
yeah, I think her story definitely pulled me in. It was interesting and sad and compelling and frustrating. I think there were probably a lot more emotions, maybe, that I realized reading her chapters than I did for Vernice.

I did find myself rooting for her, wanting to sort wanting

Kristy (17:35)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (17:35)
her to sort of pull through. I wanted her to almost like shooketh for to steal your phrase. Like, come on, listen to your

Kristy (17:41)
We don't shake Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (17:46)
friends and like find your place instead of chasing the past kind of thing.

I felt bad for Bobo, who definitely loved her and cared

Kristy (17:58)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (17:58)
about her and seemed like a good man. And she just lost that because she was so hellbent on this

Kristy (18:04)
Fixated. Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (18:06)
this past. And so it was I I think her chapters were definitely more emotionally challenging to

Kristy (18:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (18:12)
read than Vernice's.

Kristy (18:14)
I would agree with that. It and heart and just heartbreaking because like I said, you you know where this story is headed. And speaking of her friends, like these people end up not her friends at first and seem to me as a reader like bad decisions to start off with. How they essentially get in this car, they have no money, they're in this vehicle that is.

Clearly not gonna go far. It breaks down. They have to take jobs at a brothel.

But eventually, like these people become her family, really. And they try to hold her accountable to moving her life forward. And like you said, like Bobo really loved her.

Bobo was a good man. Like he was kind to her and good to her and, you know, working a job and also pursuing her pat his passions and making time for her. And she was just like really fixated on this idea of finding her mother that it she couldn't move forward with her life because of that.

Jon King-Pritzl (19:09)
Yeah.

Kristy (19:10)
So the setting, the American South, segregation, what it meant to be a Black woman in that time and place is carrying a lot of the book's weight. Did that historical context lane for you as a reader?

Jon King-Pritzl (19:21)
Yes. Next question.

Kristy (19:23)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (19:25)
yeah, i it was incredibly heavy. I I I think

Similarly to how we talked about the island environment in Wild Dark Shore this season, I feel like the South and segregation and everything was its own character through this book as well. And it was really threaded through every decision that they kind of found themselves faced with. And that was very

I think you teed it up at the top of this episode. Like Tayari Jones didn't whitewash any of it. Like

she it straight in the face. And I think I really appreciated that about the book. It made it a very compelling read. And when you stop and think about

These things actually happened. It's I found myself subconsciously

Kristy (20:05)
Yeah. And probably even

Jon King-Pritzl (20:08)
sh just shaking my head through some of the book of like

Kristy (20:10)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (20:11)
unbelievable.

Kristy (20:12)
I definitely don't think she shied away from it, but some of the stories like we can't even fathom.

I didn't think of it as a character the way I felt that the island was in Wild Dark Shore, but I felt that it was a foundation almost in everything that happened.

their choices or decision like is grounded and rooted in this piece that they constantly have to think about when it came to race or when it came to, you know, segregation or, you know, moving into another class. Like there was still this foundation of that and it is present throughout the whole book. And I don't feel like Tayari Jones shies away from it.

I wanna be a person who is like eager and open to hearing those types of stories and not letting the whitewash versions you know, dilute what really happened, you know, here in America and that, you know, we can still we can honor those stories and those experiences.

Jon King-Pritzl (21:10)
Yeah, I agree. That's a good way of putting it. I wasn't I had similar thoughts but I didn't really know how to frame them, so

Kristy (21:16)
Yeah.

already talked about, Niecy's past includes a relationship with a woman named Joette that she has never told her husband. Did that secret change how you read her marriage?

Jon King-Pritzl (21:27)
She did tell her husband at the very end though.

Kristy (21:29)
but yeah, at the very end.

Jon King-Pritzl (21:30)
Okay.

Kristy (21:31)
Like but as you're reading like through most of the book, when they're dating, when they're married, she doesn't.

Jon King-Pritzl (21:36)
She doesn't, yeah. did that change how I read her marriage? No, not really, because I think even without that,

She had sort of plotted her path. And so no matter what happened to her along the way, these are the steps that she felt was her journey to get married, to f to a nice man, winds up being an affluent family and have children in the house and I don't know if this is exactly what you're asking, but like

I I didn't read the marriage any any different. I think that was something that she just chose to bury and that is what her life was was going to be. I think

she l loved Franklin. I think she cared for him. I think she saw him as someone she could care for. I didn't think it was just a front necessarily.

But I I think that there was probably something that would just always be a little missing for her because of how she felt for Joette and not just like as her seemingly first love or first relationship, but that she was a woman and all the all the challenges that were that would come along with that, I think she felt more open and free in herself with Joette, at least that's how it read.

And

Kristy (22:56)
But is she really

being true to her sexuality is the I think what you're

Jon King-Pritzl (23:00)
Yeah.

Kristy (23:01)
saying?

Jon King-Pritzl (23:02)
Yeah, and right. And I don't think she is being totally true to that. I I also think there is a the scene when Franklin's laying out the blueprints to their to their new home and she's asking a simple question or seemingly a s on the surface a simple question about where is her sunroom gonna be or where is she her space going to be

Kristy (23:26)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (23:26)
and the reaction from the room

Was just like she can't ask that, or like she shouldn't be asking that. Like she should just be grateful for what is, or you know, whatever it was. So

Kristy (23:36)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (23:38)
and I she obviously didn't have that sort of challenge of being free in her communication with Joette. so

Kristy (23:43)
Do you feel

like those types of questions are because she's a woman or because that is the dynamic in affluent families then for the time period?

Jon King-Pritzl (23:53)
Both, I think because she's a woman and because of the time period.

What I mean, what about you? How did you feel about reading into the marriage,

Kristy (24:01)
I think it c it's kind of like last book the burning side, your partner has a whole life that you will actually never know about before they met you. And they can tell you, but you'll never seemingly understand. But also like, not all of it is your business. I I think that some people don't agree with that, but I think that our lives before we meet someone, unless it's detrimental to to them. Like if you have an STD that is actually something you should absolutely share with

with a partner, a hundred percent. But your sexual history before you meet the person you're with is none of their business. It really isn't. I think that's private. If that's something you decide to share, that's a personal choice. But I don't think it's that other person's business. I think that is

Old school thinking is what I'll say. And I'll leave it at that. An old school mentality that I have a right to know like all your sexual partners.

but with that said.

I don't think it's like will we have the same conversation if it would have been a man that she slept with versus a woman before Franklin? And I think that's maybe what the question is rooted in. Like, is she not being honest and true with

Not just her sexuality, but

Is that something you know she would actually like prefer? Because she, although she loved Joette, it sounded like she was like, I could still be happy with Franklin.

Jon King-Pritzl (25:18)
Yeah.

Kristy (25:19)
Like he still makes me happy. He is a way I'm going like to have it sounded like she wanted this like more traditional type family. And maybe Niecy's sacrificing something by not being in a relationship with Joette or another woman. It didn't have to be Joette, but

I read it as she didn't she didn't feel that way.

Jon King-Pritzl (25:41)
She didn't feel what way?

Kristy (25:44)
like Joette felt betrayed. Joette felt like if I

Jon King-Pritzl (25:47)
I see.

Kristy (25:47)
marry a man, this is not me being true to who I am. This is not what I want out of life. This is being forced upon me. And Niecy it she didn't, her character didn't read or her chapters didn't read that way to me.

Jon King-Pritzl (26:03)
Yeah, okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that.

Kristy (26:07)
But back to the question, like I don't think that she owed it to Franklin to share that she had had a relationship with anyone before that. But unless she just felt like this is a core part of who I am and I want to share with you, which who's to say at that point, she hadn't even had a relationship, it sounded like other than that, before that, I don't think she owes it to him to tell him and

Jon King-Pritzl (26:32)
She was also a little blackmailed in telling him that secret too. So there is there is that piece of it not

Kristy (26:35)
Yes, yes, yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (26:40)
to not to look past that part, but you know, she wasn't gonna get the funeral for Annie without doing that.

Kristy (26:48)
Right. Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (26:50)
So

Kristy (26:51)
Which I think Joette was just trying to sabotage the relationship and hopes like a last ditch effort too. And again, I think

Jon King-Pritzl (26:56)
Yeah. Yeah. think you're right.

Kristy (26:59)
that the what that goes back to I think Joette felt like I am not being true to myself by not being with this person, by not being, you know, out and proud of who I am, which would have been extremely difficult at that in that time in that era.

But I don't feel like Niecy felt that way.

Jon King-Pritzl (27:16)
Yeah. Hearing you say that, I I would agree. I the way that she talked about Franklin, the way that she cared for him. yeah. it didn't feel like a sacrifice necessarily in the way that one might say, I really belong over here, but society won't let me, so I'm gonna do this.

Kristy (27:31)
Yeah, so I think that

in that era, there were plenty of people in the gay queer community who were signing up for heterosexual relationships because that was what is was expected of them. And that they had to choose that. They didn't feel like they had a choice. They could the other thing was not an option.

And I don't feel like Niecy totally felt that way. Like I feel like she's not this is not a great sacrifice to me. This l relationship I had with Joette was good and fun and felt natural to her. But I also feel like she wants things with Franklin that she thinks she can't have with with Niecy or sorry, with Joette. And I don't think she th is looking at that as a sacrifice like Joette is looking at it like a sacrifice.

Jon King-Pritzl (28:19)
Yeah, I agree. She definitely wanted children and family and

Kristy (28:24)
So Niecy actually gets set up with Franklin by Franklin's mother. And Niecy's mother was murdered by her father. And then her father took his own life. and Franklin's mother, when she's kind of, you know, in the beginning setting them up and talking to Niecy.

says, I can promise you that my son won't murder you.

And I'm just wondering, because I have thoughts, how that landed for you.

Jon King-Pritzl (28:55)
Pretty sure that was one of those moments where I was found myself just subconsciously shaking my head at at that, like that those words even had to be spoken or like that that was the bar that was set.

Kristy (29:08)
Babe,

that is still the bar.

Like that is absolutely still the bar because when

Men get upset with women, they get violent with them and they kill them.

Jon King-Pritzl (29:23)
I mean that's that's a fairly big brush you're painting with right now, but

Kristy (29:26)
I mean Is

it?

Jon King-Pritzl (29:29)
I think it's

Kristy (29:30)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (29:31)
broad. I'm not saying it's not accurate.

Kristy (29:34)
Saying that most men kill

their wives, but most women who are murdered are murdered by intimate partners.

Jon King-Pritzl (29:41)
Well that we know from law and order.

Kristy (29:46)
I just said it and you said you wanted me to fact check it.

Jon King-Pritzl (29:49)
But you you

painted it in the brush that it was always a man. That may not always be the case. Okay.

Kristy (29:54)
It is always a man. It's

not all men, but it's always a man.

Jon King-Pritzl (30:03)
Okay. Carry on with your po with your thought, your point of view.

Kristy (30:06)
My

point my whole point is like that is still the bar. That is still something women are navigating. Like, is my husband going to hit me? Is my husband going to be violent with me? Like that is something that women have to think about. I have had past relationships when I was worried because I had seen a partner act what I would say is aggressively or violently and wonder.

Would he do that to me?

Jon King-Pritzl (30:37)
I understand.

Kristy (30:38)
So I'm glad that made you uncomfortable.

You sleep with one eye open.

Jon King-Pritzl (30:45)
what was the question? What I thought about this Yeah.

Kristy (30:47)
Just what you thought about that sentence, because I was like, whew. Yeah, that's

everybody. That's all women.

Jon King-Pritzl (30:55)
I mean, I I just kinda thought in general that whole scene was very interesting and to me just a a really fascinating insight to sort of that time period or or that culture or whatever it may have been that

Kristy (31:12)
that that piece of it. Okay, yes.

Jon King-Pritzl (31:09)
That the mother was basically like interviewing the daughter, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. I

I stepped outside of that particular line.

Kristy (31:18)
Yes.

Jon King-Pritzl (31:19)
but then yeah, I mean part of that conversation was that line about I can guarantee you that you know my son won't murder you. So that was yeah.

Kristy (31:25)
Yeah. It was kind of arranged marriage. Like she had picked

her out of campus essentially and then

Jon King-Pritzl (31:32)
Yeah.

Kristy (31:32)
had her over for tea. It was like, here's my son. He won't kill you.

Jon King-Pritzl (31:35)
Yes.

yeah, it was very was a very interesting scene. but also I mean, for Niecy, like she probably craved a mother figure like that. Not that she didn't think her aunt raised her poorly necessarily, but I I think because she grew up without a mother, like

I think that was very compelling for her that someone like Mrs. McKinley was giving her that attention and having those conversations.

Kristy (32:01)
Yeah. I also

think that the story portrays it that like her aunt was very clear that she wasn't trying to be her mother.

Jon King-Pritzl (32:09)
Yeah, that's true. 'Cause there are how many times she's like, I'm terrible at speaking to children or whatever she said. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (32:14)
Right. Right. Like

I'm raising you. I'm not your mother.

Jon King-Pritzl (32:18)
Yeah. That's a fair distinction.

Kristy (32:19)
You know,

and like she raises her and she does a good job. I mean, for all purposes. Like she gins ends up going to college,

but as soon as that happens, like her aunt goes back to living her life. Like she put

Jon King-Pritzl (32:31)
Her own life, yeah.

Kristy (32:32)
her life on hold essentially for these 18 years to raise her niece. And but then she's like, I got a life to live. So

Jon King-Pritzl (32:39)
Yeah.

Kristy (32:40)
I completely understand to she was in a lot of ways like craving a mother because

Even though her aunt was there for her, even though her aunt provided for her, like I think it was very clear her aunt was not trying to be her mom.

Jon King-Pritzl (32:52)
Yeah. Life guidance or yeah, yep, yeah.

Kristy (32:57)
So the title of the book comes from Annie listing Niecy as her next of kin choosing chosen family over blood. Did that land for you when you found out, or did you see that coming? Or did you already feel like it was kind of rooted in the story and it didn't need a

Jon King-Pritzl (33:14)
Yeah, so I didn't think it was a big surprise when it sort of uncovered itself in in the end. I think they both throughout their journey sort of chose their family all the way through through their lives. So

Yeah, I guess I don't know that I have any deeper thoughts than that. I I think it was

Kristy (33:34)
You feel like it was more

rooted in like entirety of the story versus

Jon King-Pritzl (33:39)
Yeah, I mean f

Kristy (33:39)
This moment at the end.

Jon King-Pritzl (33:40)
yeah, I mean from the very beginning they were referring to themselves as cradle sisters or you know whatever it was.

Kristy (33:46)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (33:47)
They were best friends, they and that bond really held throughout these very challenging times through letters also of of all things, right? Like I know.

Kristy (33:56)
Well they couldn't text each other. Again, it was silver sixty years ago.

Jon King-Pritzl (34:02)
so yeah, yeah. I don't have anything wiser to say than that. So

Kristy (34:06)
Yeah. I think

it was probably both. It was the showing you how they are, you know, Kin, how they are family, that it's not just blood, but then also like really cementing it that she lists her that way. It reminds me of line from a movie that I think about all the time. I'm not kidding, I think about this line all the time. It's from Finding Forester when

Sean Connery's character is this recluse author that writes the great American novel and then essentially becomes a hermit and he befriends this young Black boy who is going to this prep school. anyway, long story. He ends up writing this letter is about himself but has parts about, you know, the young boy.

And he says, "Losing family obliges us to find our family. Not always a family that is our blood, but the family that can become our blood." And I think about it all the time, and I just love that freaking line. I love that whole scene if you've seen the movie. Highly recommend it. It's a really great story. But that's what I thought about when I

was reading it.

Jon King-Pritzl (35:08)
Right on. That is a good line.

Kristy (35:10)
Yeah.

So speaking more into the idea of, you know, their Vernice and Annie's Bond,

Together they survive in a enormous amount of, know, trauma and ups and downs. And

Was there a point in the book that really crystallized the bond between them for you?

Jon King-Pritzl (35:26)
I guess might be cliche, but I think that would have been when wrote to Niecy that I need to leave here. Can I come stay with you? my initial reaction was actually, wow, that's really presumptuous. And I actually thought Niecy might for a brief moment I thought she might reject that idea, especially with the way

her mother in law reacted to to that I idea and how they saw Annie and baby doll.

But think that was probably the moment where there was never a question in Niecy's mind, like absolutely. Like without a doubt, like I will do whatever I can help you. I think that's probably the moment. I mean, I realize that's probably the climax of the book too to some degree, but did you have a different moment at all or?

Kristy (36:11)
say maybe when like you said

Franklin's mom, who's Mrs.

Jon King-Pritzl (36:15)
McKinley.

Kristy (36:16)
McKinley, has made her feelings about Annie known and that one, she just doesn't care for her, but also has made it clear that to Niecy, in not so many words, that this is a friend from your past who has taken a different path than you and doesn't have a place in your life, is what I feel like she was trying to say to her.

Jon King-Pritzl (36:39)
Yeah.

Kristy (36:40)
And those were her feelings toward her. and Niecy still gives her husband's car to Annie to go get an an abortion. And I felt that was the moment when she's like, no, this person is more important to me than like all the fallout that might happen here.

in this family that I'm currently in. Like I'm choosing this person. That's my family. And I'm willing to do whatever I have to do to protect her.

Jon King-Pritzl (37:06)
Do you think there is a degree of Niecy knowing that like Annie doesn't have anybody else? Like I'm all she has and so there was like a responsibility there for for her as well or?

Kristy (37:17)
That ever entered her mind. I think that, and I I don't remember her saying that. I just remember this was like this was her sister. This was a person she's willing to do anything for. Despite the time and the distance between them, they still had something special. And mean, they got through Annie essentially abandoning Niecy and her plans. Although you can read that a couple of ways, that Niecy was like, I'm

Or Annie was like, I'm never going to go do the thing that Niecy is doing. I don't want Niecy to throw her dreams away because of me. So

Jon King-Pritzl (37:49)
Her opportunity anyway. Yeah.

Kristy (37:52)
however you want to interpret that, but I feel like she would have done anything for her.

Jon King-Pritzl (37:57)
And she did, practically.

Kristy (37:58)
Yeah.

So the ending is quiet after a lot of build up. Did it feel like the right landing for the story or did you want something more? And I know we've talked a little bit about this in our opening and how we rated the book, or at least f from

Jon King-Pritzl (38:11)
Yeah.

Kristy (38:11)
me.

Jon King-Pritzl (38:12)
Yeah, I think it was a little

Flat. not because it wasn't a very emotional moment or anything. I I think I kind of saw it coming or I saw something tragic coming for Annie's journey. and especially towards the end as they're talking about the abortion, they're talking about the dangers of it at that time. And it's all very Black market kind of, you know.

thing that they had to do is very risky. it felt that it was alluding to the outcome of her not making it through that. so maybe

I guess to me it did seem a little flat, but again, I I have to feel like I need to weigh that against my own expectations of a story like this that part of me wants like another kind of plot line or something, not just like these two individual

Kristy (38:59)
Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (39:00)
journeys. So I think that's how I'd answer question.

Kristy (39:05)
I don't know that flat's the right word. It it just I knew something was tragic was going to happen. I just knew we were heading in that direction. So while I felt very sad about it, it wasn't unexpected. Now I will tell

Jon King-Pritzl (39:19)
Yeah.

Kristy (39:19)
you what I thought was gonna happen. I thought that once Annie finds out she's pregnant, and

Niecy and Franklin had yet to be able to get pregnant

Jon King-Pritzl (39:28)
Mm.

Kristy (39:28)
themselves. I thought that Annie was going to give the baby to Niecy and Franklin, or intend to give it to them, or maybe not. Maybe she was just gonna have the baby, but then she was gonna die during childbirth.

Jon King-Pritzl (39:42)
yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (39:44)
like the cycle is continuing, like she's not your mother, but she will become your mother and raise you as her own, but also that it's another child not being raised by her mother.

That's where I thought the story was headed when I found out she was pregnant. And then when it didn't, so maybe that's why I I had expectations

Jon King-Pritzl (40:07)
Mm.

Kristy (40:07)
that weren't met, which is totally unfair to Tayari Jones, because that is not

Jon King-Pritzl (40:10)
Yeah.

Kristy (40:11)
the story she wrote. And I should be rating it like the story she wrote. But in my head, that's what I think I thought was going to happen. And then when she died, I was like, Well, that stinks. Yeah. So

Jon King-Pritzl (40:21)
It would have bookend the book perfectly. Okay.

Yeah, that's a yeah, that is interesting. I wonder if I would have had a different reaction if that had been the case. Cause that would have you're right, here's another child who have been raised not by their mother, but by someone else, which is exactly like the two of them. And yeah. Very

Kristy (40:44)
Always thinking, aren't ya?

Jon King-Pritzl (40:45)
Always thinking up there, KP.

Kristy (40:49)
Yep.

All right. Your favorite question of any podcast episode. Do you have any final thoughts on this novel? Would you recommend it to our listeners?

Jon King-Pritzl (40:59)
I I think my final thought was that I appreciated book. I appreciated you picking this book. I appreciated that it felt different than any other historical fiction you had me read. appreciated being you kind of alluded to this earlier in the episode too, but like appreciated being open to the challenges of

that time period and of of the South and segregation and not shying away from that conversation and just being able to read that like that. I appreciated that about the book. I I would absolutely recommend this one. Apparently President Obama would also recommend this one, as it was on his list.

Kristy (41:38)
Yes, this book and our next book are both on President Obama's summer reading list, which our list came out before his, so that is not why I picked it, but

Jon King-Pritzl (41:47)
Ha ha ha.

Kristy (41:48)
I'm pleasantly surprised it was a little nod to like, we've got some good books this season.

Jon King-Pritzl (41:53)
Yeah. Maybe he's maybe he's following us on TikTok and as he he saw it.

Kristy (41:58)
Yeah, I'm sure that's what

it is. It's gotta be that.

Jon King-Pritzl (42:03)
yeah, So I think like similar to the couple of others you've had me read this season, it is a character forward driven story. And so if you like books like that, you would absolutely enjoy this book as well.

Kristy (42:20)
Yeah. I agree with that. I absolutely would recommend it for the reasons, you know, you said I appreciate Tayari Jones being a new author to us. I appreciate her being a different voice than we have read in the past. And I'm glad we talked about it here. And I think that yeah, it's one of those books you should absolutely add to your reading list.

Jon King-Pritzl (42:41)
Yes.

I concur.

Kristy (42:43)
And while you're adding the book to your reading list and you have that device in your hand, please go to our show page, scroll down wherever you are listening, tap the stars and leave us a review. It is really the best free thing you can do for the show and it helps more people find us.

Jon King-Pritzl (43:00)
Yes, it does. And tell another book lover in your circle, maybe some other f found family within your life,

Kristy (43:07)
Ooh, good one.

Jon King-Pritzl (43:08)
you might be able to recommend this show to. So

Kristy (43:11)
Yes. Well, I guess that's it.

Jon King-Pritzl (43:15)
Another one in the books and back onto the shelf.

Kristy (43:19)
Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads.

Jon King-Pritzl (43:23)
He should. He should. This is a good one. Yeah.

Kristy (43:25)
He absolutely should. Yeah.

Jon King-Pritzl (43:26)
Good conversation piece.

Kristy (43:28)
Take care.

Jon King-Pritzl (43:30)
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