Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea

Kristy (00:00)
Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon.

Jon (00:10)
And that's me. Each episode we'll dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and surprising insights on the books Kristy just has to make me read.

Kristy (00:18)
We're here to explore everything from timeless classics to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun.

Jon (00:26)
Settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Kristy (00:47)
Hello listeners and welcome to season three, episode three of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host Kristy.

Jon (00:53)
And I'm your co-host, Jon, the one that Kristy makes read all of these books.

Kristy (00:58)
This week we'll be discussing Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea by Jessica Guerrieri, a story about a woman torn between the demands of her present life and the haunting pull of the life she thought she'd have.

Jon (01:09)
Haunting indeed. This book was very thought provoking for me. I am very excited to have the conversations on some of these heavier, more serious topics than maybe sometimes we usually do in our other episodes.

Kristy (01:22)
For sure. So why did I pick this book for Jon? Well, the answer is I actually didn't. This was a book that Jessica, the author, reached out to me on Instagram, offered me an advance copy of her novel that was debuting later in the spring. And I read it, I told Jon about it, and Jon felt like he wanted to read it, but he didn't feel like he was ready to read it at that time earlier in the spring. So we decided to add it to our fall lineup. So here we are.

Jon (01:47)
Yeah, and I'm glad we did. I was definitely not in the headspace earlier this year to read something this heavy. So I'm glad that we're here having this conversation now. But before we get into all that, we wanted to let listeners know which books Krsity is going to make me read next. next two books are going to be Not Quite Dead Yet by Holly Jackson and The Other Side of Now.

Kristy (02:15)
Dead symbol, not like it's bad symbol. Or like sound, I should say. I realize I'm like, someone thinks I don't like it. No, that's like slashing a throat. Right.

Jon (02:26)
And the second book is going to be The Other Side of Now by Paige Harbison. Cool. I got it right.

Kristy (02:32)
Page Harbison, yeah?

Yes, you did. I've heard both these already and I'm really excited about these conversations, specifically the one with Paige. It deals with the multiverse. Paige is going to join us for the episode, which I'm also really excited about. And I just think it'll be when you mentioned thought provoking earlier, I think it'll be one of those conversations that you will think, well, what would I do in this situation? What would I do if nobody believed that I was from like another timeline? Like those types of things.

Would you believe me if I told you I'm not the Kristy you know, I'm Kristy from this other universe. So I'm really excited for that conversation.

Jon (03:11)
Yeah, right on. I mean, it sounds right up my alley, so I'm looking forward to that one. And I did just wrap up not quite dead yet, and I think that'll also be a good discussion. So stay tuned for that. And before we get into our book summary, we also want to remind listeners to sign up for our new newsletter by visiting us at booksimkmyhusbandread.com. We promise not to spam you.

Our newsletter will drop the opposite week of our podcast episodes and feature our upcoming books plus reviews of the books that Kristy doesn't make me read, which I'm awfully thankful for.

Kristy (03:47)
Yes, please sign up on our site. And also if you're enjoying the show, which we hope you are because you're still here, please rate and review us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you happen to be listening.

Jon (03:58)
Alrighty then, shall we kick off that spoiler for ebook summary? Let's do it. Okay, go.

Kristy (04:06)
Swept off her feet by the gentle charm of Lucas O'Connor, Leah's unexpected pregnancy changes the course of her carefree and nomadic existence. Over a decade and three children later, Leah is unraveling. She resents the world in which her artistic aspirations have been sidelined by the overwhelming demands of motherhood, and the ever-present rift between herself and her mother-in-law Christine is best dulled by increasingly fuller glasses of wine.

Jon (04:32)
Christine represents a model of selfless motherhood that Leah can neither achieve nor accept. To heighten the strain, Lucas' business venture, a trendy restaurant that honors his mother, has taken all his attention, which places the domestic demands squarely on Leah's shoulders.

Kristy (04:50)
As Leah dances with the devil while descending further into darkness, her behavior becomes more erratic and further alienates her from both Lucas and the wider family. Leah's drinking threatens the welfare of her family, prompting Amy to turn to Christine for support. A duel for loyalty ensues. When the inevitable waves come crashing down, it's the O'Connor women who give Leah the truth of what they've all endured. But Leah alone must uncover the villain of her own story, learn how to ask for help,

and decide if the family she has rejected will be her salvation or ultimate undoing.

Jon (05:24)
Yes, if that doesn't tell you everything about this book, I don't know what does. Well, from this point on, the spoilers ahead are going to reveal both the shadows of addiction and the light of recovery. So if you don't feel you're ready for that journey, this is your cue to pause.

Kristy (05:46)
So as I mentioned earlier in the episode, I got this book ahead of its release date and I just thought it was such a thoughtful and well-written novel. And it kind of blew me away that it was Jessica's debut novel. And I think that once we heard from Jessica and we heard her story, which I won't go into any detail here because she is joining us later in the episode and I want her to be able to talk about that.

But I reread it preparing for our episode. So having some like distance from it, I know like six months later or whatever. And it is just like kind of crazy rereading a book and the things you pick up on and the details and how you feel about certain people and certain things. Like I find my, I found myself having a completely different experience the second time around, which I'll talk about as we get into this questions.

versus the first time. But as you mentioned, I think it's incredibly thought provoking. I think it is a story about addiction that there are some people out there that are going through similar things and not recognizing some signs. And it could be a novel for those people. But I also just, the prose is so good too.

Jon (06:45)
Yeah, I bet.

Right on. This book was way more reflective for me and thought provoking than I thought going into it. And what I mean by that is, well, I'll get into more detail on that later in the questions, but I just found myself doing a lot of self reflection as I was reading the book on some of the inner dialogue that Leah has with herself and some of the choices that she makes or just some of like the phantom life conversation, which I know we'll get into. So

It was really good. I very much enjoyed it. Definitely a different kind of read than the other books you've had me. You've made me read. ⁓ I felt it was written almost like a little autobiographical, but I think that, I think that because we had met Jessica earlier and she shared some of her story. And so like, I was almost picturing her through the narrative of Leah's eyes and that sort of thing. And so it felt very realistic. It felt less, what's the word?

glamorized, that's the word I was trying to think of. It didn't really like glamorize the struggles that she was going through or some of the things. It just felt like a very real world situations. So.

Kristy (08:19)
Yeah, which again, I don't want you to say too much because I think Jessica will talk about some of that later and I don't want to spill all the tea here.

Jon (08:27)
Yeah, right. Well, let's get into it.

Kristy (08:30)
Alright, so let's start with a novel's title. Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. How does this metaphor develop throughout the novel?

Jon (08:37)
I think the only way I know how to answer this question is that it represents like her, the deeper she declines into her addiction only made every possible path out of that more difficult and more dangerous. like, because there was one point at the end where she was basically contemplating suicide, like the scene in the bell tower where she's with Amy and she's like talking about the rope of the bell and that sort of thing. So.

Kristy (09:05)
Do think she was really contemplating suicide or was she just joking around in that scene?

Jon (09:10)
I think it was on the tip of her tongue. I don't know that it would have gone any further or farther than that, but I would use, yeah, I use it when contemplating.

Kristy (09:19)
I guess I didn't, I want to say pick up on that, but I don't know.

Jon (09:23)
So I don't have any deeper answer than that. The deeper she fell in, the harder it is to get out.

Kristy (09:30)
Yeah, I mean, but I think that's the point. Like she feels like she's in between two possible situations. So she feels like she has left this life that she thought she would live behind and it is unreachable for her now. But she does love her children and she loves her husband and she can't imagine giving that up, leaving them in order to like pursue this other thing. But not pursuing that other thing is.

preventing her from living her life the way she wants to live it. So it's impossible for her. And so she ends up being, I think, paralyzed with this choice and ultimately turns to drinking, although she doesn't recognize that. So Leah feels torn between the life she's living and the phantom life she imagined for herself. Did you relate to her struggle with identity? Why or why not?

Jon (10:14)
Right, sure, yeah.

Kristy (10:25)
see I added the why or why not this time. I have folks almost open into questions.

Jon (10:29)
No more just like, yes, yes, we did relate to this.

Kristy (10:33)
I back and listened to an episode of ours and I did that like two or three times and I was like, I need to be better at that.

Jon (10:41)
I absolutely related to that concept of a phantom life. I mean, honestly, it probably comes up a couple of times in my therapy sessions too, this reflection on a life that could have been robbed from you some way somehow by an event or choices you made or something like that. I for me, I think about my choice to move to Florida and then subsequently my choice to move back to Wisconsin and my choice to get married the first time or...

my choice is during that marriage and just like those things where ultimately like our moments that your life goes in different direction from those, from those things. And you want to, you know, what could have been the sort of like dream life, if you will. You and I, talked a bit about this concept of, when we like the idea of something or like the idea of someone, right? We're not really looking at the reality necessary. We're just looking at like this fantasy, phantom version of, of what we think it could be.

And for Leah, think she just couldn't let go of that life that that life that could have been the freedom of surfing and moving around, not being tied to a child, not being tied to another person at all, really. And that freedom can be incredibly alluring, especially when someone feels, you know, stuck in their current situation. So I, yeah, I definitely related to the concept of a phantom life. What about you?

Kristy (12:05)
I mean, I hear you that the choices that we make, not just on a day-to-day basis, but at pivotal moments in our life, you who we date, who we end up like married or partnered with, or where we move to, the job, like that job we take, that can, you know, that could be a critical juncture, you know, in someone's life. Like you are here and you have like two paths. And I think that those moments can really alter the life someone ends up living.

Now, just like you had rattled off a few things, I have, you know, things in my life too that I have made choices and that have led me, you know, down different paths and, you know, also being married previously and moving across the country at like a relatively, you know, young age. And all those things led me to kind of where I am now. But for me, I don't have like Leah has a specific

picture in her mind of what she wants to be doing. No, she wants to be carefree. She wants to have the ability to surf all the time and have no strings attached to be living in her VW van or whatever it is. That's what I pictured. That's what I was picturing. I don't even really remember. She called it something. But I don't have that picture like, I should be this version of myself. I should be doing X, Y, Z.

have that, I certainly have thought, if I would have done this, maybe right now I could be doing this or having this job or whatever that case may be. But I don't have that. I don't think I've ever had that because to me, you make your choice and you move on with your life and you could spend your life thinking you should have made a different choice. But at the end of the day, you don't have that opportunity again. And you could waste a lot of time hoping for that.

But if put your effort, like if Leah would have put some effort, I mean, again, I'm recognizing the addiction, she has to grapple with that, but she has to put her effort into focusing on that and in her recovery and then focusing on her family. And it doesn't mean she can't bring elements of the life she thought she was gonna have into her current life, but that choice that she left behind to have her first daughter and to get married.

She has to move on from that. You can't go back and decide you're gonna do something different.

Jon (14:34)
Yeah, well that's the push-pull. I mean that's the other side of the coin that's...

Kristy (14:38)
That's between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Jon (14:40)
Yeah, right. It's like. Yeah, but obviously that's for some a lot easier said than done.

Kristy (14:42)
I guess, maybe in another way.

I

mean, not saying it's easy for me.

Jon (14:50)
You hold onto that idea of what could have been and when you do that, you miss what's right in front of you.

Kristy (14:56)
And in several times in the book, Leah is missing what is right in front of her. 100%. Not just in her own diction, but like with her children. So did you sympathize with Leah or did her choices frustrate you?

Jon (15:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think for me, it was mostly sympathy. I don't know, I just felt like her addiction played the leading role in most of her frustrating moments. So there's some, you know, sympathy and grace that I felt like I was giving through the whole book. If I'd been blind to what was going on with her and like if we didn't get a lot of her inner monologue and her inner dialogues, it maybe would have been a bit more maddening or like if I were a friend of hers or in a relationship.

with her and like I didn't understand what she was going through. think I could see how on the surface those actions would be incredibly maddening. But I think because the context is there of what she's going through and we're hearing her in her monologue and we kind of have an understanding of where this journey is going. think I definitely lean more on the sympathy side than the frustrating side.

Kristy (15:57)
Yeah, I think the first time I read it, I had more sympathy than I did the second time. I didn't recognize some of the things when I was first reading it that like she's actually going through, which I think shows you how like pervasive drinking is in our culture. And the second time, and I know where the story is going and...

I'm hearing her talk about things and how she's handling and dealing with things and relying on alcohol. I was more frustrated with her, but I still had sympathy for her. mean, she has a lot of feelings that she hasn't grappled with this like release of this phantom life she thought she would have and is really jealous. Maybe that's not even the right word of her husband that he doesn't have like the responsibilities that she, I shouldn't say.

Jon (16:32)
Hmm.

Kristy (16:52)
feels like she is a primary caregiver. She doesn't get to focus on the things she wants to do because his job is coming first. But there are also some things that they are wealthy. They have the means and resources. And I'm like, why doesn't she have childcare? But I think she wants to feel that, like, she wants to put something in the way of like, I can't have this life because I have these kids.

instead of like making it work. So if she wants to do her art, she still wants to like, when's the last time she surfed? You she mentions that like, she could probably get a sitter for, you know, a couple hours in the morning or whenever people surf, I have no idea. But she allows these things to be barriers in a way because there's actually something at the root of this. It's not allowing her to do those things. That's not what she thinks it is.

Jon (17:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, I agree with that. think he definitely wanted it or probably had to be convinced less to keep the child and want to marry her because he did. He loved her from the beginning probably more deeply than she of him, at least at that moment in time. She was unsure.

Kristy (18:06)
Yeah. So how reliable do you think Leah is as a narrator? For example, consider her description of her relationship with Christine. Is it an accurate reflection? Does it reveal anything about Leah's sense of self?

Jon (18:19)
I don't know. I know how to answer the reliable narrator, narrator, the reliable narrator thing. I'll let you chime in on that.

Kristy (18:30)
When I first read this book, I was not recognizing the signs Aliyah has drinking problem. So when I'm not picking up on that, and then I'm hearing about her mother-in-law and how involved her mother-in-law is and thinks that Luca's her husband is still like wrapped around her mother's finger. And she's like, essentially she's jealous of her mother-in-law. I was really fresh. I was like, that's so annoying. I would hate that.

my gosh, that's awful. But then you get later in the book and then again, reading it the second time and I'm like, honey, that's not what's going on at all. So I don't think she's a reliable narrator because I think that Leah is not seeing things clearly. Maybe Christine is a little more involved than she thinks she should be. But Leah also comes from a home where her parents were not involved.

Any level of, you know, extra, I'll put in quotation marks, involvement is going to seem like a lot of involvement in Leah's eyes. So she's clouded with that. She's clouded with like just not thinking right because she is constantly drinking. And I don't think she sees clearly. I don't think the story we get from Leah is really what's going on. It's through it's filtered through her eyes.

through alcohol, through the resentment of how she feels about Lucas, that she had to give up this life. She is not living the life that she wants to live. I think she loves her children, but I think she's resentful of her children because of the time and energy that they take away from her and what she wants to be doing. So I don't think we get at all a full picture of what is going on.

Jon (20:23)
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for educating me on a unreliable narrator. Educating me on what an unreliable narrator could look like. That's actually really helpful. wouldn't have seen it through that kind of lens.

Kristy (20:39)
All right, so moving on, how does Leah's role as a mother shape or limit her sense of self? Do you think she could have balanced her family and her dreams differently?

Jon (20:49)
Yes.

Single word answer. ⁓ I think maybe she, I think she probably felt robbed of her version of herself that she really yearned for through the whole book. She had a hard time reconciling what her life had become or was becoming and adapting to it. We've talked in the past about how in a marriage you have to continuously love the version of the person that continues to evolve and become, and she wasn't doing that. She wasn't.

she didn't stop to love the version of herself as a mother. She didn't really stop to love her version of herself as a wife or as part of this family. And so I just feel like she didn't allow that love to grow and expand. She left it back in however old she was when she had her first child. So anyway, that's my thought on that question. What do you think about her role as a mother?

Kristy (21:48)
I think she thinks that her role as a mother limits herself. That she is a mother and that's what she has become and that's the only thing that she can.

Jon (22:01)
only thing that defines her now.

Kristy (22:03)
defines her. Now, there are women who think that. Christine happens to be one of those women, which is difficult for Leah because Leah wants to do other things. And she sees Christine only doing, only being a mother. Now she has three grown children, but she still identifies as like, I'll put in quotation marks, just a mother, but that's okay for Christine. And so she resents Christine for that. And

That was Christine's choice to do that. But she thinks that Christine judges Leah because Leah wants other things. I don't, again, we only hear from Leah, so we don't know this, but there's nothing that actually Leah says that would make me feel that way.

Jon (22:52)
What do mean? Nothing that Leah says.

Kristy (22:54)
So remember, Christine meets them at the beach, one of the very first scenes, and Leah is painting while Christine is helping out with the kids. And I don't get anything from that except that Christine is helping out. You know, Christine never said, well, again, we're only hearing from Leah, but like Christine never says that, you should focus on being a mother to the extent that means that Leah has to give up every other part of herself.

Which of Leah's relationships with her children, husband, friends, or herself stood out to you the most and why?

Jon (23:30)
I think for me, I probably focused most on her marriage with Lucas and their dynamic, like their dynamic as he was building his dream and she was desperately missing hers. Like we've been in a similar spot years ago where I felt like you were on a trajectory up and I was like tanking down.

Kristy (23:53)
Now we're both just tanking down.

Jon (23:59)
No, we're just level. Anyway, so I think the dynamic between her and Lucas was, was one that I was latching onto throughout the whole book and, and kind of seeing if I could like put pieces together or reflecting on moments in our 14 years being together and things like that. So I think that felt relatable. I focused on them quite a bit. And honestly, I, I think I focused on the other is was

herself, ⁓ her inner dialogue in some of the moments were eerily relatable.

Kristy (24:35)
To your own monologue? Inner monologue?

Jon (24:37)
Sometimes.

Yeah, sometimes. But more specifically, for me of late anyways, just like in her alcoholic addiction dialogue where she's talking about like, it's amazing how easy it is to talk yourself into like, just one more. Or I just need this one to like take the edge off so I can make it through whatever event. And I just I had that

Kristy (25:00)
Yep.

Jon (25:04)
It was a lot of self reflection on that because I feel like I've been doing that a lot lately and just like convincing myself that like, there's one more, just have one more or you know what? I'm like really anxious about this thing. So I'm just going to take the edge off. No, it's never gotten to that. Like I don't, I don't consider myself an act. don't think I'm near that. don't, I'm not day drinking or sitting in a closet or anything like that, but that dialogue is or was like eerily relatable. And I can see how easy of a slide, how slippery of a slope that slide.

can be. All day non-stop.

Kristy (25:35)
Yeah.

It's every day, right? And it's for everything. It's not just to get through an event or a thing or whatever. It's to get through everything.

Jon (25:47)
Yeah. So I think like to answer your question, I focused a lot on her relationship with Lucas and her relationship with herself through the book. So what about you? What relationships stood out to you? Actually, before you answer that, there were plenty of moments where like her relationship with Christine too was driving me bonkers. But I think some of the things that you've mentioned has like softened some of that for me as well.

Kristy (26:14)
It's how your mind can be changed when you're open to it.

Jon (26:23)
I got nothing

Kristy (26:26)
We're just going to move on. And I'm not directed at you. I think the relationship that stood out for me was her relationship with her friend Amy, who ended up becoming her sister-in-law. Because not that other people weren't recognizing it, but because of Amy's experience with her own mother, who was an alcoholic, I think Amy has to lay down the hard truths for Leah.

Jon (26:50)
through

the whole book she's been doing. She does that.

Kristy (26:53)
And I mean, she does it with a soft touch. She has a soft touch at first, then she goes in, she takes Leah to the meeting and we see these moments where she's asking Leah to recognize that this is a problem and then you have the blow up at the restaurant and then the next day and having like the family, I'll say family conversation, intervention, all because...

Leah is not recognizing these things with her and herself, but yeah, think that relationship is just so important. Do you think Leah could have found another path toward fulfillment that didn't involve self-destruction? What might have that looked like?

Jon (27:34)
Yeah, I mean, think she totally could have found a different path. maybe found a way, I think she could have found ways to work with her husband to balance the childcare responsibilities or, you know, I think you had mentioned getting childcare, taking them to daycare or having Christine help out more, find, you know, open up her time and capacity to find ways that.

she could still surf more or paint on a more regular basis or that sort of thing. And I think if she could have filled some of those buckets from that phantom life or brought some of that back into her current life, I think her path could have been very different.

Kristy (28:14)
So hearing you talk about that, also reminded me, like specifically what you were saying, having Christine help. So that is an option for Leah. And that is an option that also checks other buckets. It's free, one. Two, Christine would love to spend more time with the kids. But not only does Leah not want to put all her energy into being, quote,

just a mother. She wants to be a martyr for being just a mother. She doesn't want Christine to help. She wants to be able to prove that she can do everything by herself and have everything that... Yeah, go ahead.

Jon (28:55)
Yeah.

In her narrative, she doesn't think that Christine believes she can do anything right, that she's capable of doing anything, that she's not responsible. So she's probably extra motivated in a detrimental way to prove to her somehow that she can do this.

Kristy (29:14)
I don't know that it's Christine doesn't think she can do anything right. I think it's Leah thinks that Christine thinks that Christine is the best mom in the world. That's what, that's what Leah thinks Christine thinks. I actually, I think we learn at the end of the book when we learned that there was a daughter that Christine lost that was a twin to one of the boys. I don't think Christine thinks that.

I think Christine thinks that she's a mom who loves being a mom, who thinks that's her greatest gift in life, which is fine. But I think she recognized that she has made mistakes and she has things that she lost. so, you back to the question, though. So I think that Leah wants to, she wants to prove that she can do everything and that she can be a better mom than Christine was.

and not do it the way Christine, not have to do it the way Christine did. I can be a better mom than Christine, but I can also punish everyone around me because I don't get to live the life that I want to live.

Jon (30:22)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

Kristy (30:24)
So building off that last question though, if Leah could go back and make one different choice, what do you think it should have been?

Jon (30:32)
Gahhh...

I don't know, maybe not have the baby or not get not marry not immediately feel like you have to marry this person but still like you could still raise the child. I don't know that sounds awful when I hear myself say it out loud but

Kristy (30:55)
I mean, that's just that that leads her down this path where she's unhappy now. And the reality is like people might think, well, then she doesn't have three kids, but she's not raising these three kids with the love and joy and nurturing that those kids deserve from their mother either.

Jon (31:13)
Yeah. And it doesn't mean she couldn't have had three kids later, but she clearly had unfinished life, unfinished business that she needed to get out of her system, so to speak yet. So yeah, I mean, that's the only answer I could think of because that was clearly the pivoting point.

Kristy (31:27)
Yeah, so if, you know, she drives up, she goes to the Planned Parenthood and then she ends up changing her mind. And I actually don't know, I completely hear you, like, that could have been a choice. But I think she makes the decision to keep the baby. But I think the choice after that is having the honest dialogue with Lucas. And saying, I've chosen to keep this child, there's a chance it's not your child. Like, because she's carrying that guilt around.

Jon (31:46)
Lucas.

Kristy (31:56)
for a long time and we haven't even talked about that. she could have had that conversation, but then also say, this is not what I expect my life to look like. I did not expect to be pregnant. I did not expect to be like moving in this direction and talk about what she wanted and talk about how their life might evolve. And then maybe she could make a different informed decision if they aren't aligned or get aligned and he could know that like

she feels like she's missing out on these things down the road. Or we need to get help, we need to get childcare so you can continue on these things. So it doesn't feel like this, it might feel like the side quest to him. I think that for me, that is the moment she really could have changed and decided to move down a different path, but instead she keeps those feelings harbored for whatever reason.

Jon (32:50)
Yeah, I agree.

Kristy (32:53)
Did you see Leah's struggles as personal failings or as a reflection of societal pressures on women and mothers? Do you feel equipped to answer this question?

Jon (33:05)
No.

Yeah, probably a healthy mix of both. She probably felt obligated to one, have the baby and or get married because she chose to keep the baby, especially considering how close knit Lucas's family is. There was probably peer pressure there to get married, do it right in air quotes or follow the traditional path. So

Yeah, I guess hearing myself answer this, would say is probably more social pressures than like personal failings or something like that. So what's your answer, woman?

Kristy (33:49)
First of all, I don't think any personal struggles are, like what I would say are failings. I know I wrote the question. But I think that it kind of goes back to like, we are all doing this for the first time. We all are susceptible to making mistakes and we're all just doing our best to like figure it out. So I think failings is like a little unfair to say, you know, of Leah specifically or someone.

But I do think, and the point of this question is like, there is a lot of pressure on women to like have a, you know, what you said, like traditional life and to have children. And I mean, we've been really open and honest that we struggled with infertility for years and we did all of the things and we're still unable to conceive. But the amount of times someone asked me, when are you guys going to have kids?

Like that's just a given. Like that's just what we're supposed to do. And that's just available to everybody. If that is in your vocabulary, change immediately. The question should be, would you like to have children? But also that's not your fucking business either. All right. So let's move on. How did you feel about the ending? Did it offer enough resolution or did it leave you wanting more fallout and closure?

Jon (35:13)
I actually, I don't know if this is going to be the right word, but I actually felt it was a little underwhelming, maybe even a little confusing. I just felt like the ending skipped ahead and I'm everyone showing her where she is. And I just don't know that we skipped that kind of time period throughout the rest of the book. And so it felt a little sudden.

Kristy (35:35)
Everything is an epilogue,

Jon (35:38)
So I don't know, guess that's how, that was my reaction to the ending. I don't know how I would have wanted it differently, but it just felt like, I guess it felt a little sudden, but what about you? mean, like you said, it is an epilogue, so.

Kristy (35:54)
Yeah. So not necessarily like the epilogue, but the ending and how I feel like maybe the climax of the story when we have the blow up at the dinner, the soft opening of the restaurant. I was actually looking for more of a conflict tipping point, something that happened or that Leah did that felt like something that could not be undone.

Jon (36:21)
Yeah.

Kristy (36:23)
I don't think that the damage at the soft opening was that. I actually thought what was going to happen when they're passing, like when her and Christine passed the envelope back and forth that has the paternity results of Dottie. I Christine would, I thought Leah was either going to open them up right in front of the table or whatever. Like, cause that to me would have been like scandalous that

right in front of the whole family, in front of this opening. She's embarrassed her husband. She's embarrassed herself. She's embarrassed her family. And then she has this reveal that Lucas might not be the father, even though Lucas has no idea and this kid is 10 years old now, or nine or 10 years old. So I thought that actually, I thought that was what was going to happen. But we don't get that. I felt that way the first time. I didn't necessarily feel that way the second time. It's maybe that's just because I knew it was coming.

but I was waiting for that. And the only thing to me that was missing from the epilogue that I would have liked to see personally, more of a resolution or not complete reconciliation or genuine love or whatever, but something with her and Christine, whether that was like a conversation and understanding that they can see each other

in a different way than they've been able to see each other because Leah's been constantly in this like haze of alcoholism. So maybe Christine isn't seeing her and she's certainly not seeing Christine and understanding Christine. And we don't also know, I she's been married to Lucas for 10 plus years. We don't know how long this has been going on. Has it been their whole relationship? Has it been part of it? Like when did she really turn to like starting to depending on alcohol?

But I would have liked to see a little bit more resolution there. Again, not like, you know, they're not going out for mandipetties every week together or anything like that. But maybe she's inviting Christine over more frequently to like watch the kids so she can go do her art thing or go surfing or something like that.

Jon (38:35)
Yeah, I think that's a great point. think I wasn't really, that's untrue. I do think I was also sort of waiting for that really like undoable moment to happen. The climax of the book. But I think that's also maybe what made it feel more autobiographical to me in the beginning is like, this is probably how a real scenario would unfold how someone really going through this addiction, how someone

people around them identifying it that there wouldn't necessarily always be this like

Kristy (39:09)
I guess what I'm maybe now that I'm like hearing you say like a rock bottom moment, in remember she goes to an AA meeting and she talks about has someone has that experience there where she had that person had like the rock bottom moment. So I guess the self-launch is her rock bottom moment. I just thought it, I don't know maybe I'm in it for the drama. You're right. It doesn't have to be. I think I was just as a reader looking for that.

Jon (39:38)
Yeah, I get that.

Kristy (39:40)
All right, so that's all the questions I have. So I think we have Jessica on the line now. So do we want to welcome her to the show?

Jon (39:47)
Let's do it!

Kristy (39:51)
We want to welcome the author of this novel, Jessica Guerrieri. We are excited to have you with us, Jessica. I know we spoke to you about your novel back in the spring before it's released, but what has life been like since then? Yeah, well, it's really fun.

Jessica (40:04)
fun

to be on with you guys again. feel like we got like the band back together. Yes. I feel happy. I was like, ⁓ my goodness, I can't wait to talk to you guys again. Yeah, some things that have been going on. Well, you know, I've been on a book tour, which has been a ton of fun. I started collaborating with Kristen Bear, who is ⁓ an influencer, sober influencer of creative sobriety. And she and I our whole vision sort of aligns magically.

Jon (40:13)
Hold that.

Jessica (40:34)
where you don't need to be limited inside your recovery. In fact, it opens all these doors for you in terms of what's possible in your life. And so we started to take our show on the road. We call it a literary salon where we talk about my book and all things recovery. And it gets sponsored by non-alcoholic beverages. And we're doing one in Florida with

Lo Welch, who is another sober influencer who's like incredible. And we're just kind of spreading that message and like also promoting my book and my publishers love it because it's like the best of all worlds.

Jon (41:15)
Right on. And stops up in the northeast in DC, Virginia, Maryland area?

Jessica (41:21)
So we are going to do New York for sure. We're going to go to the East Coast. We're just looking at if it's going to be the end of the year or the beginning of the year, but we will for sure make it over in that direction. Nice.

Kristy (41:34)
So from our conversations and just what you've talked about now, you've been really open about your journey on your social accounts and even in your author's note, which was very lovely. I love author's notes. I read them all. I know that not everyone does, but you talk about how addiction has played a major part in this novel and then your own journey and then Leah's unraveling. So how did you approach writing about the topic with honesty and compassion given your experience?

Jessica (42:02)
Yeah,

so me, it felt like such a natural marriage because, you know, we had bounced around with the idea of writing a memoir, right? But then again, like, memoirs don't sell unless you have, you know, what, 10,000, 100 million YouTube followers or a channel or, you know, publicity or whatever. And so my agent and I had discussed this idea of like, auto fiction where, know, you can like,

Kristy (42:03)
Right.

Jessica (42:29)
piece together what are the parts that are true and that feel really real. You know, when you read a book and you're like, okay, wait, you just like described a detail where it was like the golden slipper that accidentally fell. And you're like, that happened in the authors of your life. Like there's no way that you just like actually came up with that. And that kind of feels like this like secret that you have with the author, right? It's where you like build that intimate relationship with them. And so I wanted to write a book where it felt like you were like sort of reading

obviously a version of my life. And I was comfortable with that because it hides behind the wall of fiction where, you know, no one's coming for me like a million little pieces where they're like, Hey, what part of this is true? What part of this is not true? And so that's sort of where we decided that this would be a good, a good balance. And so I was super

initially reluctant to go as deep as I did into the darkness of it because I was really fearful of the judgment and criticism that I would get as it related to, you know, actively in addiction while parenting and what that really looks like. And so for a long time, I sort of hid the idea. was like, well, the truth is I am sober. I've been sober for ⁓

my children's whole life, they've never seen me drink alcohol, but I started using drugs during the pandemic. And that was when I wrote the book. And so my kids have seen me in active addiction, just not with alcoholism. And so I was scared to write in that dark, dark place, but ultimately that was what made the book, I think, so impactful. And then I can speak about it really honestly now because I'm on the other side of it. And so that's why I chose to do that.

Kristy (44:16)
know we spoke to you back in the spring, you talked about how you wanted to also write a novel that would have been a novel you needed that when you were going through that process. I just think that that's such a like so powerful because it is a work of fiction, but it also like is an honest narrative and like has elements of yourself to the point where Jon even ⁓ he felt like it read like a memoir. So it's so

not funny, but like for you to hear you say that because he made that correlation like multiple times as we've been discussing the book.

Jon (44:50)
Yeah, it really felt autobiographical. It felt, it didn't feel glamorized the way Hollywood might glamorize it or anything. It just felt like the way real life would actually unfold. And I just really appreciated that about the whole story and it felt more relatable even in, you know, because of that and in that way. So.

Jessica (45:07)
Yeah, thank you for that. I know I'm so curious. You guys got a version of me and I feel like as a woman in sobriety, I've worked really hard to present as my authentic self now. So it's like, feel like, I know you guys because you guys are presenting as yourself. Same thing with me. And so I hope that you are kind of like getting a peek inside my brain and like a very ⁓

I mean, intimate way when you have met me before. And I think that's where the magic happens, right? Where it's like, I want you to know more because that actually like makes other people curious. And then it's like, you open the door of like vulnerability and vulnerability breeds vulnerability. So.

Jon (45:53)
Yeah, 100%. There was a question in part of our conversation earlier too, where Leah's in inner dialogue throughout the whole book or a lot of moments in the book. It was eerily relatable to me even as well. it was very self-reflective and very thought-provoking in a positive way. So I appreciated that. And I think I brought some of our past conversation in the spring.

with that little bit of context and a little bit of reality into that. And it just made it like a stronger sense of empathy or a stronger sense of like compassion for the character.

Jessica (46:31)
Yeah, I appreciate that. know for sure, with criticism, Leah to a lot of people is unlikable, right? She does questionable things. And then I've had a lot of people that root for her really deeply and profoundly. And my goal was to show the dark side of it, meaning the character that we're presented with isn't herself. This is not...

This is the shadow version of herself in active addiction. And so we really only get a glimmer of the hope at the end, right? But it was because, like you said, I wanted to read about someone that was in that specific portion of addiction because that was my most baffling time. It was the time that I was like, wait, I don't want to be this way. I don't want to be doing this. I don't want to be...

lacking out, I don't want to be repeating myself, I don't want to be humiliating myself, what is happening to me? So that is why I wrote from that specific part of ⁓ active alcoholism, because I wanted to understand it. And the truth is, when I came up the other side and I listened to it and I read it again and I had people kind of regurgitate it back to me, my whole understanding of my version of my disease is completely different since writing this book.

Kristy (47:57)
specific to maybe releasing some of those or how you feel or interacting with the book as well.

Jessica (48:04)
Everything, Just absolutely every single part of it where it's like, huh, it makes me like, ⁓ because to be honest, when I first started this process and you know, I was I was being interviewed or something, people would say something to me like, Leah is like profoundly unlikable. And I was like, wait, I'm sorry, what? Are you serious? Like, she's the best. Like, love her. course I love her. I made her from my mind. It's like one of my children, you know.

But I was like, what do you mean? And then there was a moment when I listened to it once we had it done on Audible by Mia Hutchinson-Shaw, who if you haven't listened to her production of it is just spectacular. ⁓ gosh, her voice is so beautiful and.

Jon (48:44)
It was wonderful.

Kristy (48:49)
Jon thought it was you. ⁓

I'm like, there is. like, I only know for certain because she told us. ⁓

Jessica (49:00)
Totally. You're not the first

person that said that and I was like, my God, when I was a kid, I used to hate the sound of my voice. Like I hated it. I thought it was like too deep and like, you know, manly and you you're so critical. I was also like on like a Walkman like recording.

Kristy (49:16)
Jessica, that is the patriarchy talking and you do not need to listen to it.

Jessica (49:21)
You are right. I do not. In fact, it models after somebody who like went into Juilliard and did vocal. So thank you for that. You're welcome. It wasn't until I like listened to her reading it back to me that I had this realization of like, wow. Like the obsession that Leah had with trying to navigate her relationship with her mother-in-law and her just

Jon (49:32)
You

Jessica (49:50)
fixation with trying to control things that she could not control. I almost didn't see it as I was writing it. It felt like, you know, that's what like people do. And then it was like, well, that's not what sober people do. Right. And so to have that sort of, you know, I'm in recovery, I'm doing the work, I'm doing the steps in the program and I'm in AA, but it's like, that was a version of self-awareness that I would never have gotten had I not wrote the book myself.

Kristy (50:21)
I, as you know, like read it the first time and then when we were preparing for this, I did listen to it and I do feel like I had a different experience as well, like listening to it now, I knew where the story was going, so I had appreciation for different pieces and parts of the story and characters, but I do feel like I had a different experience with it that second time around for some of those reasons. I do want to talk about Leah though, and you just mentioned that...

She's to me not a reliable narrator because she to me is not unlikeable either, but it's because we're not getting the real Leah. But there are moments I pointed out like a real clarity with her where I feel like we do see her or what I imagine Leah would be like. And two of the moments I thought of were when she confronts, they're both with Ila ironically, when she confronts her and basically says, Ila makes a comment that

I was never meant to be a mother and she says, well, too bad you are and you're going to be another one. And I thought, well, point that finger at yourself, girl, but she can't, she can't see that right now. And then the second moment is when she's doing CPR that sometimes you don't realize how big a moment is like when it's happening. And I thought you've like, she's had like all these moments, like specifically.

And for her, maybe it's not a moment, but a period of time. But we hear about some of those moments, like her moment to keep the baby, her moment to like keep it secret of like who the father is. And so I really enjoyed Leah as a character. think she's frustrating because of what she's going through. But I had a lot of empathy for her for that. I had a lot of love for Amy because not every Leah has an Amy or has a circle.

Jon (52:13)
for sure.

Kristy (52:15)
But specifically also, I think the book does a really good job of talking about or like the tension between motherhood and identity. So I was just curious, like what specifically made you want to explore that? Yeah.

Jessica (52:30)
Well, going to speak to that really fast because I love how you pointed that out because I think there's like these glimmers of where we do see Leah, right? those are actually like their god shots, right? Is what I say in the book. And it's just it's where your true self is sort of revealed. And it's sort of it's one of those like I think of it as kind of like magic of recovery where it's like.

you almost get to like watch yourself from up above. And I think I even say that in the book, like you're like looking down and you see like who you should be. And also there's certain people who bring out the best in you. like Amy is one of them and like when they're having their banter or they're able to like just be themselves, you see her and she, yeah, she can't quite see herself, but she knows what's there because.

inactive addiction, have to have something to hold on to that's like tangible. Everything's getting like skewed and ⁓ in those those like staple people and those ⁓ those people that like ground you those are like the people that end up ultimately saving your life because they're the ones that they are your touchstone. They are your you know, touch tree that's like, I know that I'm safe because this person will sort of bring

Kristy (53:44)
and we'll

Jessica (53:45)
bring it out of me, even though it's up to me to get sober. So I wanted to speak to that. But the thing that I really wanted to do with this that is so uncomfortable is I wanted to do this like exploration of when we say the quiet things out loud, like the scary things that we're not supposed to say. And you're not supposed to say as a mom, like, I've made a huge mistake.

You can't say that. But the thing is, is that you can speak honestly about your experience and you can say, wow, this is so different than what I thought it was going to be or harder or, and what is it about the experience that's hard? And I think with Leah, I wanted to kind of like peek back and like open up that idea of like, well, why is she seeking the reprieve of alcohol? She regrets motherhood.

That's a really dark thing to say, but she could drink herself to death over that. And she was on her way to doing that. So instead, here's an examination of what that looks like and then like a reevaluation of it, because in the end, she has those true glimmers of motherhood. You know, there's the conversation of her ⁓ dancing in the street with her daughter, like picking up flowers and they twirl.

So that was actually a thing that happened in the pandemic with my daughter and I were both wearing dresses and we picked flowers and our little skirts were going around as we were twirling. And I just had this moment of full body chills, this is what it is, this is what motherhood is, and this is the joy. And it's not always this, I mean, very rarely in certain times, right? And then just be there, be in that.

And so, and it's okay to not feel like you did it as you should because how in the world would you know? Like, you don't know until you know.

Jon (55:50)
Yeah, great point.

Jessica (55:52)
Yeah, so that's really where I wanted to go because I think a lot of this culture of motherhood, everybody says like, it's so hard, but it's the greatest thing ever. And there's this caveat that they have to add because it's like, because I think of the patriarchy, to be honest, like our role is this and we're supposed to do this and we're supposed to be grateful and don't be anything but grateful. And that's not fair.

Jon (56:20)
Yeah.

Jessica (56:21)
was that ⁓ fair? we're supposed to be happy and subservient or whatever it is and it's like, refuse first of all, I refuse to raise three daughters that way. I will never, ⁓ you know, they get to say their feelings and be validated in them and not gaslit into being like this is

Kristy (56:24)
It's so not!

Yeah. No, it sucks sometimes.

Jessica (56:50)
Yeah, and it's okay if it's not. It doesn't mean that I love them any less or that I regret being a mother. It is absolutely not that. It is 100 % completely unexpected from what I thought. And for me and what I've learned through this process is all of the things about motherhood that are triggering for me, those are the things that like make me want to drink, right? So being overwhelmed is my trigger.

So it's the thing that makes me want to check out. It's the thing. And guess what? My life is 24 seven. It's three little people saying, I need this, I need this, I need this, I need this. And so that is my nightmare essentially. And I didn't know I created my own nightmare. Like I walked right into it. But just as she said, Ila, you have to buck up. I say it to myself. It's like, I've made this decision. This is our life.

How do I find those beautiful dancing in the street moments? I just, find them, they happen, and then I accept the fact that like, ⁓ overwhelm is my trigger.

Jon (57:59)
I think that's my trigger too.

Jessica (58:01)
Right? It's such a, it's so overwhelming, the sensation and like, you know, everybody's talking about autism now. And it's the you know, the buzzword of every and it's just like, is there an adult that loves like sensory input of just like, things happening? Like they need and they want and they and everybody need? No. It's so overwhelming. It's so overwhelming.

Kristy (58:23)
No.

Yeah.

Jon (58:27)
It really is. If you could give Leah one piece of advice, like looking back on the book now and everything, what do you think, what kind of advice would you give Leah?

Jessica (58:38)
The advice, it's so, it's cliche, because we say it in AA, and it's like, it just keeps getting better. I feel like I just discover myself more and more every day. Like, there's nothing I can't do that or be around, you know, in a social setting. I just feel limitless in that. And so I would just like tell Leah to like, keep going, like keep going on that trajectory. Like being sober and clean.

is never the wrong answer. Like nobody will ever regret that. On the deathbed, I won't go back and be like, I wish I would have eeked out like 10 more good years of drinking, like which is what I thought when I started getting sober. I was like, I got sober at 29. I probably could have like done it for like at least another 10 and not died maybe. And I'm like, why would I, why would I want to do that? Nothing good.

Kristy (59:12)
Yeah.

Nothing

Jessica (59:35)
was happening in that time. And so I would tell that to Leah for sure.

Jon (59:39)
That's a really interesting perspective. The sort of ending you're laying on your deathbed. Like, what would I regret? Like that's, yeah, that would never pop into somebody's head. Like I wish I would have spent more time drinking.

Jessica (59:48)
I would have had like that one more drink. actually, I have a whole thought on this concept because I had a sponsor who I loved very dearly and I'm actually basing my second book on and she tragically passed away from ⁓ lung disease. She was like another mother to me and she just, she literally saved my life. But one of the thoughts was her and I talked at length and she was the one that like,

showed me that you can die with dignity in recovery because if you're given a death sentence, why wouldn't you just go out and say, nothing matters? Like, have I tried heroin? Maybe this will feel better than having an elephant on my chest because I can't breathe because of this. And so there was something about the way my sponsor decided to die with her dignity intact that I felt so profoundly beautiful and moving.

And like, it made me see that like, if she can get the worst news you can get, arguably, and still continue to maintain sobriety, life, however it hits me, in whatever form, I can keep my sobriety and my dignity till the end too. And so I watched her pass away with her sobriety intact.

Jon (1:01:08)
It's incredibly powerful.

Kristy (1:01:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jessica (1:01:11)
So I wrote a book about it. So that's my second book.

Jon (1:01:14)
I'm excited to read that one.

Kristy (1:01:16)
Yeah,

Me too.

Jessica (1:01:17)
It

wasn't actually about that. And then it's somehow, it's actually about a missing woman. And there's like elements of like true crime in there that I like got super involved in. During the pandemic, I got like, with true crime because I, I really wanted to like understand why women become so fixated on listening to horrible things that happen. And do know why? Do you know the answer?

Kristy (1:01:45)
No, I don't think I do.

Jessica (1:01:47)
Okay, the reason is because we have been gaslit our entire life into saying that terrible things don't happen to women, that you are overreacting, that you need to just calm down, it's actually okay. And we need to hear the proof and read the proof that no, we're not crazy. Like husbands do kill their wives more often than ⁓ any other partner relationship, right? Yep. Jon, I'm not looking at you.

But you know what I'm saying? We need that validation. And so in a lot of ways, it's almost like regulating and it's soothing to recognize like this does happen. And so my second book, I decided to tackle ⁓ sexual assault and violence against women. I'm a survivor of sexual assault. And so it's incredibly common and all too common. And so I wanted to...

to tell that version of my story with the addiction piece, but actually leaning into the recovery side now. And so I do the recovery and the relapse while realizing, well, what is behind it all? And it's really the trauma that a lot of women have endured of violent, often sexual assaults. And so I'm just like, I think it was my mom or my editor or somebody was like, wow, you just like don't.

talk about light, like, you don't do any, like, joyful reads, you? I like, no, I just got it all!

Kristy (1:03:19)
Someone's gotta tell the hard stories.

Jessica (1:03:21)
I

like, I am obviously a hopeful person, but I think it's just so important to have these conversations, especially in book club reads, because, you know, so we're gonna truly talk about it. And if it's based on something real, then people are more likely to talk about what's real for them.

Kristy (1:03:40)
Yeah.

Jon (1:03:41)
Do you have a title for that that you're able to share yet?

Jessica (1:03:44)
Yo, I'm gonna actually, can I read you guys the little blurb thing too? It's called "Both Can Be True," and the blurb is: "When a local woman goes or when a local mother goes missing, two estranged sisters are pulled back into each other's lives and forced to confront old wounds, fractured trust, and the many ways a woman can disappear in plain sight."

Jon (1:04:06)
Love it.

Kristy (1:04:07)
And the cover is beautiful too.

Jessica (1:04:09)
I'm so excited about the cover. It's yeah, it's It's also like a callback to the tree.

Jon (1:04:16)
the with the one in the middle.

Jessica (1:04:18)
But I think there's something so profound about the way that as humans, we lean into each other, meaning like we need to support one another. And so for both books, there is that theme of like, we're actually stronger when we connect. And so these two sisters that have had such a hard childhood and are fractured in the past, this catastrophic event has kind of like pushed them to lean on each other.

Kristy (1:04:43)
Yeah.

Jon (1:04:44)
It's been some of the most surprising things that you've heard from readers' reactions so far about the book.

Jessica (1:04:49)
Well, besides the fact that Leah's not likable to everyone, which is rude.

One of the most beautiful things that's come out of this is people responding with their personal journeys and not in the way that like I had anticipated. It has been a lot of people, not necessarily they themselves struggle with addiction, but they have family members and they're like, I never thought to look at it in an empathetic way. I had somebody come to me at a book signing and she was like, she was really young. She was like in her 20s. She's like,

My mom died of the disease of alcoholism. She never got sober. And I read your book and I feel like one step closer to forgiving her after reading it. I was just like, okay, well, end scene. Like I have nothing else. Like I cannot top that. ⁓ And she's like, my mom's name was Leah. And I was like, I'm done.

Kristy (1:05:46)
⁓

Jessica (1:05:47)
I was like, like full body chills, but stuff like that where it's just like, my God. And I'm experiencing this sober. Like I'm here. I'm like a lot. She's telling me that like something that I put into words is helping her heal as a person. Like I can't even, I'll cry. Like I can't even like get any better than that.

Kristy (1:05:58)
Yep. ⁓

Jon (1:06:11)
What an incredible feeling. Congratulations. mean, that's just, that's amazing. Thank you for being brave enough to put that out there and to like, you know, have the courage to do that.

Kristy (1:06:22)
Last question, this was something that Jon and I talked about earlier in our discussion. If you could, or if Leah could go back and make one different choice, what do you think she should have done differently?

Jessica (1:06:37)
I get a version of this question a lot, not on Leah, but on me with alcoholism. Like, do you think if you wouldn't have been violently sexually assaulted in college that you wouldn't become an alcoholic or you wouldn't have like gotten the road? And I'm like, literally anything could have happened and I was going to be an alcoholic. Like that was always going to happen. That's my belief. So for Leah, if you play out the tape and in one shift, let's say she doesn't become a mom.

let's say she does go and do that totally different nomadic life. I think the same thing is true. She was destined to abuse alcohol the way that I was. she was always going to find the thing that she was uncomfortable with because the problem was within her. And everywhere you go, there you are. So that's what I would say.

Kristy (1:07:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jon (1:07:31)
That's a damn, that's a great answer. So Jessica, thank you so much for spending the time with us. Take another hour out of your Friday to chat with us. We always love hearing your story. Hopefully we can meet you possibly in person if you come to New York for. That's what I was trying to think.

Jessica (1:07:46)
Yeah, A Literary Salon.

Kristy (1:07:48)
Yeah.

Jessica (1:07:48)
And

I would absolutely love to see you guys in person. I feel like we will meet up in person in our future. see it. I so appreciate you guys' time. I hope you have feedback on for my second book too.

Kristy (1:08:00)
I'm already like, it's scheduled in my head already. It's a done deal.

Jessica (1:08:05)
Okay, bye guys. Bye, thank you.

Jon (1:08:10)
you

Man, that was awesome. I'm so grateful that Jessica came on, shared her journey and especially love how, hearing the inspiration behind the book and how it written and her journey through all that. So it was awesome. Thank you. I'm so grateful that she took the time out to chat with us.

Kristy (1:08:33)
Yeah, I am just very appreciative of her and her story and how open she is about sharing it. I specifically love how she talked about that she wrote the book that she needed. And I hope that this book can be that book for someone else. But with that, do you have any final thoughts on the book and would you recommend it to our listeners?

Jon (1:08:48)
Yeah.

⁓ I, my final thoughts are, I feel like this is a book that you have to be in a mindset to read. It can get heavy. It can get triggering possibly for some people, but I think it's, it's an important story to tell. think there is a good balance of sort of the darkness and the light ⁓ at the end. So, and I also just

Really want to support Jessica. So yes, I would recommend people should read this book.

Kristy (1:09:25)
I definitely think people should read it. I recommended it to a friend and you were like, well, just go grab it. It's like on your shelf, just let him borrow it. And I was like, no, he needs to buy the book. He's poor Jessica. I'm not giving away my advance copy. no. So I would recommend this book. I think all those things you said are fair that it is heavy. Actually, because I have the advance copy, I don't know because it's.

Jon (1:09:38)
yeah, that's right.

Kristy (1:09:54)
some of those things are missing when it first gets printed. I don't know if there are trigger warnings, but as we mentioned, it deals with alcoholism. if that is something you are navigating or struggling with or have, you know, a close family member or friend who is as well or something you've had to deal with in your life, then I would think that you need to be in the right mindset for that and know that going in, it's heavy on like the family dynamic and also like...

being a woman and choosing motherhood, maybe when you thought that you would have a different path. So navigating that as well. Well, we wanted to remind everyone that the next two books in our lineup are Not Quite Dead Yet by Holly Jackson and The Other Side of Now by Paige Harbison. And as always, don't forget that a free way to support our show is by leaving us a review and rating us on Apple Podcast. Also, if you don't want to us, but you have a question or feedback on the show,

Jon (1:10:31)
Agree.

Kristy (1:10:53)
You can always email us at booksimakemyhusbandread @ gmail.com. We would love to hear from you and we will always give you a shout out for your question on the show.

Jon (1:11:01)
Yep, that's true. We will give a shout out and be sure to tell another book lover about this show.

Kristy (1:11:08)
Well, I guess that's it.

Jon (1:11:10)
That's it. Is that another one in the box?

Kristy (1:11:13)
Yes, that's another one in the books. Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads. ⁓ Take care, bye bye! Peace out, Billy!

Jessica (1:11:20)
Bye!

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