The Family Experiment

Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon. And that's me. Each episode, we'll dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and surprising insights on the books Kristy just has to make me read. We're here to explore everything from timeless classics to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun. So settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Hello listeners and welcome to season two, episode five of Books That Make My Husband Read. I'm your host, Kristy. And I'm your cohost, Jon, the one that Kristy makes read all the books. Completely against his will. Yep.

It's funny because it's true. This week we'll be discussing The Family Experiment by John Marrs, a dark and brilliant speculative thriller about families, both real and virtual. This one was pretty fucking wild. I'm ready to talk about this one for sure. Yeah, me too. It was disturbing yet felt very salient at this moment in time. That is very true. But before we get into all that fun stuff.

We wanted to remind our listeners that the next two books in our lineup are The House on the Cerulean Sea by T.J. Klune and Say You'll Remember Me Standing in a White Dress Staring at the Sunset Babe by Abby Jimenez. And remember that you can see the complete lineup of all these books for season two and from season one by visiting our website at booksimakemyhusbandread.com.

or by following us on Instagram at Books I Make My Husband Read. I heard that you emphasized, make my husband read. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is in the title, literally in the title. Literally? And now for that spoiler free book summary. The world's population is soaring, creating overcrowded cities and an economic crisis.

And in the UK, the breaking point has arrived. A growing number of people can no longer afford to start families, much less raise them. But for those desperate to experience parenthood, there is an alternative. For a monthly subscription fee, clients can create a virtual child from scratch who they can access via the metaverse and a VR headset. To launch this new initiative, the company has created a reality TV show called The Family Experiment.

It will follow families as they raise a virtual child from birth to the age of 18, but in a condensed nine month time period. The prize? Their right to keep their virtual child or risk it all for the chance of a real baby. The family experiment is a dark and twisted thriller about the ultimate Tamagotchi. And hopefully there are people listening to us that still know what that is. A virtual baby. It was a virtual baby. I didn't have a Tamagotchi. Did you have a Tamagotchi? No.

Yeah, I mean, they're poor. But they were all over school. Okay then, we are diving headfirst into spoiler territory with no lifeguard on duty. I can't. So be warned.

You want to talk about what we rated the book? And I know for a fact I went first last time. Yeah. Okay. So, Lord, where to start with this book? I loved every minute of this book. Within the first few minutes, I was like, this book is messed up. You said that to me. I did. said, did you start this yet? Because it's messed up and I've been listening to it for about five minutes. Yeah, was like, yeah, totally 10 minutes or whatever it was. But I was hooked. I was immediately hooked.

Listening to it was also really interesting because there are a lot of characters in this book and it was done with multiple narrators, which helped keep each one kind of in their lane. And you remembered who was who a little bit easier that way. But despite the number of characters, I didn't think any of them felt half-baked or that they didn't need to be there. They were all intentional. They were all complex in their own unique messed up ways. it just all came together.

All came together so beautifully in the end. There's so much in this book that we could talk about that will probably never fit in this episode. So I'll save my more prescriptive thoughts for the questions. But what about you? What was your initial thought? I gave this five, by the way, like a straight five stars. Straight up. Straight up. I agree with everything you said. There was a lot of characters and sometimes in novels.

It is very difficult to keep track of them, but I think John Marrs did a really good job of making me feel connected with them in a way that I was like, this is this person, this is this person. Now, I did really enjoy the audio as well, not just for the full cast, but they have advertisements that are part of the reality show. And so it was fun hearing those because they sounded like commercials and there was different things like that. So I thought that that was really uniquely done.

I also enjoyed the pacing. He has a really great way of giving you just like a little nibble that leads to something else, but you don't find out for it for several chapters because you're reading other characters. And that kept me just turning the pages or hitting play, I guess, on the audio in this instance. It's all the same. I loved how everything kind of...

wrapped up in the end, and I don't mean with a neat little bow, but we got the full story of kind of what happened behind the scenes as the reality show, which we'll talk about kind of has this terrible ending to it. And then we find out everything that was going on that led to that. And I think because if you don't get that as a listener, you're left with some questions. But I thought that that was really well done. And I know we're going to talk about some of this. Slightly terrifying. We're in a moment of time when AI is

huge. I use AI, you use AI. We're talking about it constantly at work. And we're being warned about it too, which I think is a real, personally think is a real concern. You know, things are going to be used for bad. So I think that John Morris explores some of those like darker ways that it can be used. And I think it's done in a way that you're like, Hmm, yeah, that's not cool. Yeah. Really makes you question things. So

This bleeds really well into my very first question, which is, did this novel feel particularly relevant to you at this moment in time of AI? Yeah. End of answer. Next, please. I mean, some of the tech felt a little fantastical, it also didn't feel... I know, still don't have jetpacks. Yeah, jetpacks, yeah. But it didn't feel out of the realm of possibility either. Like, there are full body suits where they could...

full of haptic sensations and things like that. I had mentioned to you over the weekend about how we're learning all these AI tools and we're learning how to write good prompts for them so we get the responses that we want. And we are being conditioned right now to learn how to talk to robots. And I 100 % You kind of love that though. I know. And I think that'll happen in our lifetime. In our lifetime, you think so? I do, yeah. I'm so sad I'm going to miss the future.

I know. We got a lot of future left though. I know. For sure. For sure. But yeah, I hear you. But on the flip side of that, it's like this book and you're alluding to it also touches on like how do we as humans train these things ethically and responsibly, right? Which is a huge part of this book. so, ethics and responsibility also feels very relevant right now. What is that? I scratched my chin.

Yeah, so I mean, to answer the question, like, yeah, it is 100 % relevant. How did you feel about it? I felt the exact same way. mean, this is, it feels like this moment in time where this is really happening or this is the future. But I have another question because I feel like maybe I don't understand VR. We don't have like a VR headset or anything like that.

And then I see these commercials with people like moving around in their living rooms or videos where like people run and forget they have a headset on. They're like running in a game. I don't know. So you have in the book these people that are like in a room and they're doing all these things from this room, I assume. But they're like hiking Machu Picchu and like going on a safari or riding a roller coaster. Like how do you do that?

by just standing still, like how do you actually really experience it? Like how do you walk? I felt confused by that, but maybe that's me thing. I mean, I'm just not understanding virtual reality. I mean, I obviously don't fully understand it either. I had a lot of the same thoughts. mean, those were the parts that I felt were a bit fantastical about More like the matrix.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great analogy because there were parts in the book when Issy discovers Tina in the metaverse speaking with Belle and she's talking aloud, she's moving her arms around, but the rest of her body isn't moving. That's really the only thing I could think that they're moving it with their minds or something. Now they're Jedi? Now they're Jedi, yeah. It's a Jedi mind Matrix to Star Wars. but a Matrix is probably a better analogy. They plug in like that and they're...

stationary in the chairs, but they're clearly moving around in a world. So I don't know, let's buy a VR headset and find out. Any sponsors out there? That would be great.

Anyway. All right. So let's dive into some of the specific characters. First, have Cadman and Gabriel. Cadman is a social media influencer and uses the experiment to boost his public image, while his partner Gabriel seems more reserved. How did their differing motivations affect their parenting approach to their virtual child river? Cadman and Gabriel. I think the most obvious way their parenting style was a

impacted was where their individual priorities were put. Gabriel spent all of his time with River and made River the priority, sharing experiences together. He was building trust with this virtual child versus Kadman, who is basically exploiting River at every possible chance. Not basically, he was. He was. But he also, I mean, to be fair, I did not like Kadman. He was one I like, get out of here. But

He was the one person experiment who really wrapped his head around like, this is not a person. This is a virtual thing. This is a bot, whatever you want to call it. And that is hard for some people to wrap their head around. And I actually thought about this with the Tamagotchi because I remember when I was little, people were obsessed with them. But to me, I was like, what is the point? What is the point of feeding this thing? There is no

reward, there is no anything for not killing this Tamagotchi. Who fucking cares if it dies? But I see a universe where this can be really healing for parents who maybe have lost a child and they even talk about that in the book. But I appreciate that about Cadman. He's like, it's not a real kid. He was still like, he was wildly infuriating though.

He, for sure, absolutely. I still felt like, get out of here. The way he treated Gabriel. Yeah, that's different. I'm talking about in relation to the child itself. He was in it to increase his social status as a social media influencer because he had lost status when Gabriel went through his stuff and like not just status, but like also financially as well. I definitely, he was inferior.

treated Gabriel like shit. I don't think really love Gabriel and basically says that. cared more about controlling him than caring for him. But I think what ends up happening to Kadman and Gabriel is you see the fractures in not just their relationship, but why they came into it like piece by piece. You find out Kadman actually has no intention of keeping this child.

Gabriel actually is trying to be a good parent, is falling in love with this child, wants to continue to raise it, but because they don't have a good foundation within their relationship together, it just all falls apart. Yeah, literally right in front of them. yeah, it's true. So our next couple is Woody and Tina, and they are hiding a significant secret about their daughter Issy. How did their actions influence your perception of them as parents?

Do you think they made the right choice to hide their daughter? man. Out of all the contestants, I think this couple might be tragic. Yes, I don't know what the right adjective is, but it was definitely tragic. I mean, I think one specific person has to blame within the tragedy. It's still tragic. Yeah, agreed. I was actually I mean, I was rooting for them at first. Again, I should have known better. But once Issy was revealed, I was like, what the fuck?

So no, no, I do not think they made the right choice to hide her. There's so many levels of fucked up, especially as her story continues to unfold and that she didn't really kill that boy. But on top of that, then they made Belle an exact replica of Issy. That's what was so messed up for me. So yeah, go ahead. know you have a ton of thoughts on this. We talked about this. So it is one thing. Okay, look.

No parent wants to hear this. But if you have multiple children, there are some that you like better than others. Don't fool yourself. You might love them all and do anything for them, but you just naturally like you like people better than other people. And you're going to have children that you like better than your other children because you have more in common or you can talk about things. That's life. Doesn't mean you wouldn't do anything for your kids. But every now and then someone has a child that they just do not like.

Okay. I read a book recently and this parent wrote a note to one of her children. said, you are not the child I wanted, but you are the child I deserve. there are parents who probably feel that way. Okay. That aside. Issy has some serious mental health problems. She is probably psychopathic in some way, or form or has psychopathic tendencies.

and they think she killed a young boy. Turns out she didn't. She actually thinks she did, but turns out she didn't. So instead of her going to juvenile detention, they keep her under extension like house arrest. this seems, this is an option for them, but they move.

away from the place that they were and they like hide her. So no one in this new neighborhood of where they are like knows Issy exists and she's like in their basement and doesn't see the light of day. Okay. The messed up part is this virtual child that they create for this competition because the parents got to like choose the gender, choose what they looked like, all those things. They made it look like Issy.

that it's Isabel is the full, Issy's full name. And so they named the daughter Isabel, but call her Belle. So they made a do over the same child. So the mother really like, I don't wanna say hate, but does not love her daughter because she thinks she's done these terrible things. And there was other things happening. Like she was abusive to animals, blah, blah, blah. But.

It is one thing not to love your child. It is another to create a replica to get a do over. Like I don't understand. Yeah. What? I mean, So so here's what's messed up to me is you have these ill feelings toward a daughter who you've had for years and years and that is built up.

but then you created a new daughter that looked the same and you expect to have different feelings? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they thought duplicating it would give them an advantage because they could feel like they had experience already and they could relate with this duplicate. I don't know. Even me trying to explain it doesn't make any sense. There's no... I can't think of a rational I guess it's like they want... I mean, especially the mother, Zoe.

No, Tina. Tina, get your ham. Especially Tina, she maybe wants to look at her daughter in a loving way, but can't. Maybe. mean, throwing her a bone here. Yeah, a tiny little bone. All right, let's talk about Selena and Jaden. Okay. At one point, the couple was separated because Jaden had lost all of their savings, savings specifically set aside to start a family through IVF.

We find out that Jaden has also fathered multiple children with women, which comes to light during The Family Experiment. And he was paid money to do so. What did you think of this storyline? Do you think he got the ending he deserved?

First, no, I don't think he deserved being bludgeoned to death, but he obviously didn't deserve Selena either. No, for sure. For sure. As far as this couple, like my heart broke for Selena. She seemed genuine and wanted it with all of her heart to try again and to be right. Here was another chance they were getting to...

have a family or at least try one out with Jayden to see how it felt. Even though her gut was telling her really from the beginning that something was off, not right. I'm glad that she made the conscious decision to leave him during the game. Like she began to stand up for herself and stand up for what she deserved and kind of spoke up for herself, I feel like maybe for the first time, I don't know. yeah, then she kind of...

I liked, I know we'll get to this in the end and stuff, but I liked her ending of the story and the book too. So Selena is the one character out of everyone who's not hiding something. Oh shit. You're right. She's actually fucking normal. Yeah. I hadn't put that together here. Yeah, you're absolutely right. She is the only one not hiding something. And the only one that they could get dirt on was Jaden. Yeah. Probably to a certain extent, she was trying to protect him so that wouldn't come.

but she certainly wasn't, she didn't have any dark secrets of her own that she was keeping hidden. Okay, let's talk though specifically, what did you think about him sleeping with other women to get money to help replenish some of their savings? Is this how guys think? Like he didn't go to the sperm bank. He went and slept with these women and acted like no big deal. No, that is not normal for normal mankind.

Male kind, males, species, whatever, us. Oh, so just wrong. I don't even know what other word I could use for it. When it first came up, I'm like, okay, he probably donated to a spanking bag to get the money. like, I get it. You didn't tell her because of X, Y, Z reasons. Maybe you're embarrassed. Maybe you're trying to make it up yourself, whatever. But then when it comes uncovered that.

No, he actually physically slept with these women over and over until they got pregnant. Like, bro. Bro. I not think that's wrong. would have bludgeoned you. Maybe not to death, but shit. Giving us a bad name, man. Yeah. I had the same thought because they asked, do you think he's having an affair? And she was very adamant. She's like, no, I don't think that at all. Yeah. I do think he cared for her, but I think he also like...

I think he needed her. I mean, I think he loves Selena. I think in his own messed up way, he was trying to fix something and he had this addiction that he probably feels tremendous guilt for. And so in his mind, he's like, I'm doing this better thing. This thing is bad I'm doing, but I'm also trying to make up. I'm not excusing his behavior by any means, but I think that I do think he loved her and cared about her. I don't question that at all.

Yeah. All right. Next on our list is Dimitri and Zoe. are grieving the loss of their real world son, Adam, who went missing years ago. What did you think of Zoe's doll that she had hidden in the loft, which she also names Adam? Did you think this was creepy or a legitimate coping mechanism? OK. Yes. Initially, I thought it was creepy as hell. I was like, what is happening? I remember just shaking my head.

when they introduced this and my mouth was agape and I'm just like, what is wrong with this person? But then you get her story and you get a little bit more revealed and you peel back the onion. Just a little bit. And you understand why she's doing it. You get to hear that she doesn't see the doll as a real person or a replacement of Adam, but it was a comfort.

during a very traumatic time that she wasn't getting from Dimitri, her partner. And when she said, I lost a son that day too, that really resonated. I feel like, actually I think that can probably happen in a lot of relationships when tragedy happens that one person feels like they have to be the rock for the other and they actually miss out on their own grief and their own grieving process and things like that. as that whole story- is when couples lose children. I imagine, I don't know this.

to be certain, but I imagine that is a lot of times what tears, cause it's hard to survive that. And I think it's probably for that exact reason. mean, sure there's a number of reasons, but I imagine a big one is that. And then especially the story that they're selling on how it happened, like it could have been very easy to point fingers and it was your fault and it was your fault or whatever. But I was happy to see him come back and like really start to hear her and understand.

Why she was doing goes up to the loft and he says, I want to understand. Yeah, and just sits there and asks her questions and really listens instead of just really dismissing what he sees as being not crazy, that's not the right word, but disturbing. He really tries to listen. that's what I think. What did you think about Dimitri and Zoe? I really liked them up until I did it.

when you find out more, like you find out at the end. I think like you, thought that Doll was creepy at first, specifically that she's hiding it. But she's very clear that she knows this is not a real child. This is her way of releasing anxiety. I mean, everyone has coping mechanisms and this was hers. she...

talks that, you I know this isn't real, this is not Adam, this is not anything. So I didn't find it creepy because, hey, we all have to have a way to get through it. And I mean, she's doing something that's not harmful to anybody in order to, you know, deal with this tragic loss. continuing on with the depth of Dimitri and Zoe's story.

Knowing the information they knew or that they thought they did, do you think that they actually made a good decision in giving Adam away or did you think this was naive of them and that they were looking for a way out? This is a really complex question because it requires us a little to be able to empathize with that level of despair and hopelessness and not just at the level, but from what it sounded like, how long it had gone on. And they were sold a very different story than what

reality was, you know, it's easy. It's a little bit easier now to judge them with all the facts, but what they thought they were doing was giving their son a better life. And in a sense like that's not that much different than parents putting their kids up for adoption with the same hope. Like I don't have the capacity to care for this child. I want to give them up for the chance at life. Now that said, those people, those parents who feel that way that are giving their kids up for adoption.

they don't wipe their memories by stabbing a syringe into their eyeball. And then staging the disappearance slash death. And so that part of it is a little hard to swallow and hard not to judge on them for that. But ultimately Adam did get a better life and what they hoped for him did wind up happening. So I'll be at a very, very different path than what they were told.

I felt the same way as you. I'm like, well, there are parents who every day give up their child for adoption. I mean, some right away and then some, you know, happens later in life. So this is not an uncommon thing. But you're right. The wiping the memory thing again. I thought, OK, this is a futuristic society. Who knows? Maybe they don't want Adam to like have this grief. But the staging of his death.

Like if you truly only cared about the betterment of your son's future, you would have just given them up for adoption and told people that. But instead you wanted people to feel bad for you. And that is not okay. I agree. That is where, and to me, like they should have, they knew something was not quite right or they weren't thinking quite right. And when you give a child up for adoption, you're not getting

your debts aren't getting wiped out the way that this happened either. So that does add like a slightly different level of dynamic to it. But yeah, I think we saw that storyline very similarly. So we've mentioned Hudson a couple of times, but he's the only participant in the competition who was single. And as we learn more about his background story and his connection to the Ararat facility, it seems obvious to me that he would play a greater part in story.

Did you have suspicions about him from the start? And did you predict any of the twists in the story? I definitely felt he was going to have a larger role than any of the other contestants. I got that sense he was up to something. I think because we got a piece of his origin story, even though we didn't really know who he was throughout, just the name Hudson made the connection through. And so I figured he's in this game for a reason. He has a part to play. I actually thought that

the kids that were being trafficked in the beginning. My initial projection of that was that these kids were kind of like the Matrix again. They were gonna get plugged in and they were gonna like act as the child avatars in a way to make them be more real. So they were actually real kids behind the curtain, so to speak. That was one thought that I had very early on in the book. Obviously we discover it's way worse than that. But I was rooting for him early on because I had already sort of built up some...

empathy for him. did think he was going to turn out to be the Adam at one point, but I did not see the twist at the end that he was the boy that Adam had had saved. I thought that was brilliant writing. The way that that all tied together. It's just crazy. Yeah, because I, as I'm listening and putting all the pieces together, I was like, my gosh, he's Adam. And then he ends up being not Adam. was like, that's way better. Way better. So like you obviously read a lot more than me. I feel like you

get in tune with these sort of things better than I do. So like what were parts of his story? What did you think? Yeah, so I definitely felt that Hudson was going to play a larger role. We're getting a different side of his background story because I think it seems obvious or it seemed obvious to me that what he was experiencing is related to The Family Experiment.

in a way that none of the, we're getting background stories from other characters, but his is like specific to the AI portion. So I felt like it had to do that. He's the only single guy. I thought he was like maybe a plant for the company for a while. Interesting. So I definitely, I feel like I was following the breadcrumbs there. Again, I was thinking he was Adam. He ends up being the other boy that Adam saves. Again, I think that is brilliant writing. was better than him being Adam because

And the moment Dimitri and Zoey are confronted with this reality that they think, Adam died. Like, you sent your son to live a better life and you actually didn't even make it through the day. He died. Right. Right. And I was like, oh my God, that's so devastating. But it was so good. Like, it's so good. So I wouldn't say that, I necessarily predicted anything because, again, I thought he was going to be utilized in a different way, but I definitely felt that he had a...

bigger role to play in the story overall. So the participants life are broadcast 24/7, subjecting them to public judgment. How did this constant surveillance impact their behavior and decision making? Okay. First of all, all the chats that were through the book were so cringe. Yes, the commentary and like the, during the little chats that they would do from people watching. Yeah. But you know, for a fact that's happening.

That is happening. People love this shit. They just live vicariously through other people's drama and chaos like that. No thanks. of them, we talked about this, but they had commercials and advertising. And one of them was, if you are watching The Family Experiment more than eight hours a day, you might be suffering from XYZ. I'm like, some people need that notice out. If you are on TikTok more than eight hours a day, please seek help.

Seriously, my goodness. anyway, I digress, back to your question. I think every single contestant was strategically aware of the audience. Obviously, more than Kadman. Behaviorally, I think it forced them to always be positive on camera and go for the more red hearts than the black hearts. And so I think that probably didn't allow them to think about how would I discipline this child in it.

in a way because they didn't want to have that negative. Well, they're under your microscope. I can't even imagine like all all parents make mistakes and all parents are not always their best selves because you are human just like your child is. So having to constantly be under surveillance and having it judged, I can't even imagine. No, I mean, it made me think of public figures in our real world.

constantly being followed. mean, there are some public figures though that need the black hearts to float in front of their faces sometimes. Just block them out and that kind of shit. But man, I would fucking hate that. I think that in and of itself would keep me out of something like that. Yeah. No, you. What about you? No, I mean, again, I mean, there's some of these contestants who are hiding some dark secrets, but I don't wish for anyone to be under constant judgment.

Every single, you know, I'm not raising a child and I don't want someone to constantly judge my life, even just being myself. mean, I do stupid shit all the time and like say the wrong thing a lot. So how many black hearts did we get for our nap earlier? Don't talk about my nap like that. I think my therapist would give me a bunch of red hearts for the nap. Good for you. Self care.

goodness. each contestant or pair of contestants started with £250,000 pounds to raise their MetaChild. At the end of the experiment, they could either keep their MetaChild and the remaining funds or opt for a cash incentive to start a biological family. Which option would you have chosen? boy. I think based on how quote unquote real each child was described to be.

in said metaverse, I could see the possibility of like a real emotional attachment happening even though they are not quote unquote real. They're not quote unquote real, they're not real. They're not real, okay. Period. Period. So I think I would find it difficult to just switch them off. mean. Yeah, they can't come do stuff with you. They only exist in their world. Yeah, and you can only go do stuff.

in that world. given the state of how terrible the real world was, I don't know. I may have like staying in the metaverse. I might be happier. Spend all your time in metaverse? Can you eat in the metaverse? Do you get sustenance from this fake food? I don't think so. I have questions. I say this with an asterisk, obviously. But anyway, I'm going to guess your answer would be pull the plug and give me the real kid. Take the money and run.

No. Well, here's my answer, actually. I'm going to probably shock you. OK. If we were at the point in our journey where we wanted a biological child or we were trying for a family still, I would absolutely pull the plug because I have a very real sense that that is not a real child. You might form emotional attachment to it, but it is not a real child. Sure. So I would have taken the rest of our funds to start a new family. However, we're not at that point anymore.

But we've talked about how like doing something like big brothers, big sisters and having a connection with the child could be important to us and something we would want to explore. So I think having a virtual child wouldn't be a bad thing right now. Cause you can be like, you know what? I'm not doing that today. I love it. I love it. Order up. I'm going to take a nap. The virtual child can be shut off.

But I think that, I mean, Gabriel gets to this point. He wants to keep the child. And Cadman's like, it's not a child. It's virtual. It's not real. But he has formed this attachment to it wants to keep it. Where I think some of the other parents, like they want the chance at a real child. Selena says that. She's like, I don't want this. I want a real child, a real family. So I think it just depends on where you're at in your life and like what you're looking, what you're looking to fill or.

have with this. It's a very pragmatic approach. That's describes me in I'm quite pragmatic. we've touched on this a bit, but in the book, there's a debate, I'll say, that comes up numerous times about the virtual children being actual children versus the reality that they are only bots and that there is no great harm in just shutting them off. Where did you land in this debate?

man.

feel like we could. This could be a bad guess itself. absolutely. Look, I think the reality is that they are virtual, they are digital, they are code. And as we humans try to build things to replicate humans with learned behaviors and unique histories and kind of becoming a product of their own experiences.

I think that line becomes a little more blurred. I don't think it's this black and white. mean, like, think about R2D2 and C3PO. Like, we have an emotional connection to them. They're just robots. They're not real. But we were all sad when, like, C3PO shut off. But living in your world, though. They're not in a world themselves. Sure. They are code in a physical form as opposed to code in a virtual form. But they're still just code. I agree with that. But, like, C3PO and R2D2,

and BB8 for that matter, are not just code. They are physical things. You could hug any of them. Yes, you could hug your metachile too. Only in their world. Only in their world. With a bodysuit on and a headset. Flip the coin though. It's like you can only hug C-3PO in our world, not in the other world. I think though that there is a difference. Forming an emotional attachment to a robot

is one thing, okay? Because you're experiencing that thing in your world and doing things with it. And I could sit down for a meal with that they can't eat, but I could sit down for a meal with them. I have to go somewhere else and dress in a different way and put special things on to access this world. Yes, I can go anywhere in the world. I can go to any...

point in time, which was also really fucking cool in the book. But I could go, I can only go do that there. can't, you just can't, I just like, you can't, I think about the things like you're, I don't know. It's so complicated. is, it is because like, I don't think we can appreciate how, at least the way the book was describing it, how real the artificial world felt. But is your child like,

doing things without you when you are not there? No, you can only access them when you're in it, right? Well, no, that's why they were getting push notifications that so-and-so woke up or they are in a cranky mood or this happened to them like that one time, I don't know, one of them fell or something and they got a push notification and had to like jump in to help them. they are still, and then they're like, it was a little bit hard to understand too as they got older in the game.

Yeah, like where are they meeting friends? yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Like you're going to see them graduate college or you're going to see go to their wedding and are they going to have virtual babies of their own? is what, that's a, that's humanity. That's a big part of life. Right. So if these things aren't happening, it's just hard for me to like rep my brain around it. Do you think that they would get a say in whether or not they get deleted or not? So this reminded me.

of Severance, which I think is a special television right now. And if you haven't watched it, absolutely watch it. I will not spoil anything in the severance world. You can separate yourself from your work self in your home. Yeah, they're called any's and out. So your any goes to work and your out is everywhere when you are everywhere else but work. And there's this debate like are the any's actual people like button?

but no, they are the Audi person. You have a form of reality inside work, but that person is still, doesn't exist without the Audi. So it's like these two different conscience, conscience, conscience? Consciences? Consciences? Yeah, think that's right. And again, it's hard to- It is, it's hard to your head around Yes, it's hard to your head around it.

Because part of me thinks like, no, they are, you are the Audi, but it's not necessarily true for any in that reality. Like they are having their own life and their own experiences. So. Which is the state of the MetaChild in this book. It's like they are becoming a product of the parenting and their environment and everything else. And so that is humanity as well. Like that is learned behavior that informs who you become.

Right. I don't know. don't have a good answer. know either.

I, we're definitely not, well, you were more so than me are definitely not the kind of person to like sit in the middle on something and be like, I see it both ways, but in this scenario, it's, can, I can quite literally see it both ways. Well, it's not that I can, I don't see things both ways. I just also feel in a lot of instances and it's important to have a point of view, but in this.

instance, I'm not sure because I think this is part of the problem with AI like we don't know. I mean right now at this point in time when I think about it correlating to the Tamagotchi I'm like no, it's not a thing. It is something that does not exist. does the technological advancement change that even though foundationally it's still very much the same? Yes, I think as

as AI and virtual reality and whatever that looks like start to grow. And obviously it's very advanced in this book. I think that some of those things start to evolve and change. I agree. Which brings me to my next question. Did the ethical implications of parenting a virtual child resonate with you? How do you think society would react to such a concept? Right now, I don't think society would be ready for something like this. Y'all ain't ready for this.

We can barely agree on what makes a real child. So I don't think we should introduce what makes a MetaChild. I don't even think of that. It's so true. So no, we're not ready for it. But I mean, can you expand on what you mean by ethical implications of parenting? Like, what do mean by that? Yeah, I think that we see the we see kind of people fall in like this isn't a real child. It does not have rights, but.

So to speak. mean, there are two children in the book that virtual children, get murdered. And it is not murder because they're not real. Yeah. And are no laws that say so. There's no laws. But what we have already talked about is, what makes a child a child? And do those child or do those children end up having rights? Like if you're the parent of this child,

You love this child, you've been raising this child as it were a real child, even though you have to access it through this virtual universe. mean, why don't you have some of the same rights? Yeah. My gut kind of leans towards that as they become virtual individuals, they inherit a lot of the other same behaviors as humans in the way that they're developed and grow up and feel things and react to things.

I think they would have a say. think they would have a voice in whether they're deleted or not. And I think you see a side of that with, what's Hudson's daughter's name? Alice? Alice, yeah. So you see that with the relationship that Hudson builds with Alice, that she had a very comprehensive understanding of what was gonna happen to her. And when he made the decision to delete, she understood. She knew in her conscience.

whatever she was developing. I have an end date. She knew from the beginning that she would be shut off when she reached this 18th at this point of the competition. So this was built into her... I don't know. I don't even know how to talk about it. Conscience. I don't know the words. This is going to be like the Google. know Google? No one knew what Google was.

20 years ago, 30 years ago, whatever, whatever. That's why I think this will happen in our lifetime. That was only 30 years ago. Look how much it has changed. Yeah, I think that is society ready for this concept? I guess my original question was, how do you think society is going to react for people who are raising biological human children versus people who are raising virtual children? I think it'll be all kinds of judgy. So final question, sort of.

I always have my last wrap up question. But would you ever volunteer for something like The Family Experiment? Fuck no. No chance. No, sir, I do not think I will do that. But not because of the idea of it. There's no way I could personally handle the 24-7 exposure thing. I would crumble. I would just not enjoy that one bit.

Would you? I don't think so. I don't even I don't love virtual or sorry, I don't love reality TV in general to even watch it, to be a contestant on it. No. Yeah. No, thank you. Especially for something like parenting. Right. No, do not need people scrutinizing me. The Internet is a bad place. Yeah, we have real humans that'll do that.

Right, exactly. You're going to get enough judgment from every person and allow those people to relate to you. You don't need to be on TV and get judgment from strangers. 100 % agree. All right, so now the actual last question. Yes. Do you have any final thoughts on the book? Would you recommend this to our listeners or should they exit the simulation? Nice. I would, and I would just say like,

going to it with an open mind because it challenges some things that you think, it makes you think how would I have reacted to this or how would I be in this scenario, which is just, great writing. The characters are awesome. The ending is awesome. I want to read more by John Marrs, but you have to allow me to read more by John Marrs before I can read more.

by John Marrs. I do not limit the books you can read. I only make you read certain ones. can read, I read other books. I know. not only reading the books that we're talking about here. I know, I know. I just choose to use that other time for other things. Yes. But maybe in this case, because I enjoyed this one so much, I would maybe fill that time with another one of his books. Because it was, I love this genre. I love this kind of book.

It's right up my alley. So yes, recommend and just going to it with an open mind. Those are my final thoughts. feel like someone needs to go to, I'm just curious, like with an open mind. Because I think that there's... Do you think there's controversy in it? I think so. I think a little bit. I think in the great debate about what makes a child a child and what makes a connection a connection and that's like that whole piece and...

Obviously, the trafficking and child abuse that we hear about later too can also be traumatic. that it's an open mind though. I think that it challenges you to think. Right. And that's what I mean. Don't go in there thinking, oh, I don't agree with this or whatever, and so I'm not going to like this book. I just think you need to. Even in this conversation, I walked in the book, these are not children. These are something you can turn off.

feel like I convinced myself that maybe that's not true.

That's great. And you, I mean, I can only assume that you would also recommend this book. I would absolutely recommend it. I think that if you like thrillers, this is something that will keep you turning the pages. I was never bored at one, not at one point in time throughout the book. Nope, not even page one. I think that the twists are great. Sometimes when a story wraps up a little too neatly, I don't love that, but not...

This is not the case. You know, we get the story, but it's not in a neat little package bow. Some of our characters have really tragic endings. And while I didn't love that for them, I like that the story had that. I mean, I don't need to have a happy ending with every story I read. I like when things are dark and I appreciate unhappy endings because that's real life a lot of times. I agree. All right. Well, if you have no other final thoughts.

And you are ready now to exit the simulation. We wanted to remind our listeners that the next two books on our lineup are The House in the Cerulean, The House in the Cerulean Sea by TJ Klune and Say You'll Remember Me by Abbey Jimenez, which we just got today in the mail because it is actually the release date. It's not if you're listening to this live, but it is when we are recording that. And Jon is so excited.

So excited. You didn't sound excited, but I actually know that you are. I know I am excited. I really like I loved Just For The Summer last season. So I'm ready to read another one of hers and see how it compares. Yes. And as always, don't forget that a free way to support our show is by leaving us a review and rating us on Apple Podcasts. We are desperately asking.

our listeners to please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. It does help other people find our show. So we would appreciate it if you would take the time to do that. But that's it. That is it. That is another one in the books. And I loved it. Is it in the virtual books?

Did it really happen?

Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads. He should. You'd love it. Okay then, signing off. Bye bye. Bye bye. Unplugging. Simulation ended.

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