The Crash

Welcome to Books I Make My Husband Read, a self-described hilarious and heartfelt podcast where I, Kristy, the devoted book lover, curate an unexpected reading list for my husband, Jon. And that's me. Each episode, we'll dive into lively discussions, humorous debates, and surprising insights on the books Kristy just has to make me read. We're here to explore everything from timeless classics to quirky hidden gems, challenging our perspectives and inviting you to join in on the fun. So settle in, grab your favorite beverage, and get ready for another literary adventure.

Hello listeners and welcome to season 2 episode 3 of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host Kristy And I'm your co-host Jon, the one that Kristy makes read all the books. Yes. This week we'll be discussing The Women by Kristin Hannah, a historical fiction novel centered around the women who served in the Vietnam War. Yes, they were there. As you predicted, it pretty much destroyed me. Yes it did, as I knew it would. Because I am always right.

But before we get into unpacking all of that, we wanted to remind listeners that the next two books in our lineup are Rebel Witch by Kristen Ciccarelli and The Family Experiment by John Mars. I'm specifically excited for The Family Experiment because John Mars is an author I have not read. It was recommended to me because I like Freida and someone said, have you read John Mars? And I said, I have not. And when we were deciding on the lineup for this season and that we would give a full assortment of books to allow listeners to get ahead in their reading. This is one that I thought would be fun to add. So I have no idea what it's gonna be like. Sweet. But before we dive into this episode and our summary, we wanted to share that this episode contains content that may be alarming to some. While it's impossible to account for all potential traumatic triggers, we will be discussing topics such as alcoholism, anxiety, PTSD, death, war, sexism, amongst others. If you or anyone you know is suffering, please know that it's okay to not be okay. Always seek the advice of your medical or healthcare provider regarding any questions or concerns you may have. And we'll go ahead and list some resources in the show notes. Okay. Now,

How about that spoiler free book summary? Women can be heroes. When 20 year old nursing student, Frances "Frankie" McGrath hears these words, it's a revelation. Raised in the sun drenched idyllic world of Southern California and sheltered by her conservative parents, she has always prided herself on doing the right thing. But in 1965, the world is a change in and she suddenly dares to imagine a different future for herself. When her brother ships out to serve in Vietnam,

She joins the Army Nurse Corps and follows his path. As green and inexperienced as the men sent to Vietnam to fight, Frankie is overwhelmed by the chaos and destruction of war. Each day is a gamble of life and death, hope and betrayal. Friendships run deep but can be shattered in an instant. In war, she meets and becomes one of the lucky, the brave, the broken, and the lost. But war is just the beginning for Frankie and her veteran friends.

The real battle lies in coming home to a changed and divided America, to angry protesters, and a country that wants to forget Vietnam. Ain't that the truth? The Women is the story of one woman gone to war, but it shines a light on all women who put themselves in harm's way and whose sacrifice and commitment to their country have too often been forgotten. A novel about deep friendships and bold patriotism, The Women is a richly drawn story with a memorable heroine whose idealism and courage under fire.

will come to define an era. Now, anything beyond this point will contain spoilers. This is your last chance to go grab a mop because the plot twists are about to spill. Did you Google? Yes, I fun-puns for book reviews. I like that one. That's cute. Thanks. Apparently we're spilling the... What were we spilling?

Spilling all the plot twists. Spilling all the plot twists. Here we go.

I think last time I went first. Did you go first? You went first actually last time. Okay. Did you want to go this time? Sure. Tell me what you thought about the women. So I was really blown away by this book. I was blown away by how visceral the author's portrayal of that time period was. Yes. I felt like I wasn't just reading something, but I was really experiencing it alongside Frankie and alongside the other characters. I loved how

The author didn't shy away or romanticize war or her trauma or anything. was very raw and real. were countless times I just wanted to scream. It was just such a gut-wrenching, twisting, emotional rollercoaster. And it broke me, like you said. Like you said it would in a way the book hasn't done that. The book hasn't really done that to me in quite a long time. Different than a fantasy book, right? Sure. Different than the way characters in a fantasy book might.

shake you. This was just, you knew that this happened and this was a reality for a lot of people. Yeah, there are stories like this out there. And I know this is your first Kristin Hannah book, but that is just absolutely what I love about her. All the things you're saying. She just drops you right in the middle of this story and you know exactly what's going on. The way she sets the scene.

the way she talks about the places and the things and the smells and everything going around. Like you said, you feel like you're there. You're having this experience with these characters, specifically with Frankie. I wanted to scream for her. I wanted to fight alongside her. I wanted to hug her when she needed to be hugged and hold her when she needed to be held. And I mean, I love this book. I have loved all the books by...

historical fiction books by her that I have read and I love all of them. It's just it's just such a I feel like an experience, know a literary experience. So how much knowledge did you have about the Vietnam War in this time period prior to reading the novel? And then what was your impression about this time period either as you reading or maybe what you brought into the book before you read it? Mostly the

general stuff that I can remember from history class as if I can pretend to remember things from history class because it was so long ago. As if you can pretend you paid attention. Or paid attention, yeah. That's also probably true. You're carving in "Jon was here" on the desk. Yeah, just to prove, yeah. That's funny. But I mean, you know, the broad sweeping strokes, like the protests about the war, the civil rights movements during that time period, the rise in...

the youth rebellion, know, starting to reject traditional values and sort of embracing alternative lifestyles. The influence music had in that time period, like Bob Dylan and CCR and all of those great artists and how the war inspired their music and things like that. And really as I've gotten older and gotten to sort of reflect on that time period, I almost feel a little bit like it was sort of the beginning of the great divide of this country, like up to that point.

I would say I didn't live in that time period, but up until that point, it felt like there was still this. Wait, are you saying you're not a child of the 70s? No, I am a child of the 70s. That is a factual statement for five days. Yes, that is true. But still factual statement. Anyway, you're born in the 70s. I would not call you a child of the 70s. That's fair. Okay. Child of the 80s. You're right. I was born in the late 70s, just like I'm going to be able to say later. I was born in late.

I mean, 1900s, Anyway, I felt like that time period felt like it was really sort of the beginning of the great divide of this country, where, I'll put it to that point, there was still a lot of patriotism and camaraderie from World War II and the success of that war. And this just really began the journey of the divide of this country. Not that this is what this podcast is about, but upon reflection, I was like, I feel like that was really a turning point. Yeah.

I think you could do a whole podcast on whether that is true or not. But I think it is fair to say that there was obviously a lot of discord. There was a lot of ill favor toward the war and what was going on, which obviously is discussed heavily in the book because there was just so much turmoil in how people felt about it.

mean, Frankie says at one point, can't you hate the war but still appreciate the war? Something like appreciate the warriors. And that really resonated with me because I feel that way about a lot of things. Like, it's not that I'm not grateful for those things, but I don't have to like the things that are necessarily going on. So what were your general thoughts of Frankie as a protagonist? What did you think about her growth from the beginning of the book until the end? So I loved...

Frankie as a protagonist. Again, I appreciated how real and raw her journey was through the whole book. There were parts I felt like I could relate to with her journey, like her sort of like youthful naivety was relatable in the beginning, the sort of idealism of what war was and what it meant to her. And, you know, this idea of being a hero, moving away from home at a young age, learning some really hard life lessons through the whole book. I just felt like I was brought along with her.

And she was just, she was written so beautifully that I was just compelled to root for her, to want to support her, to, you know, embrace her when she needed. I wanted to like be by her side, fighting for the injustices that were so blatant and obvious to her during that time. And yeah, I just really loved her character and I was, I loved how Kristen Hanna wrote her. What about you? What did you think?

I love Frankie. I've read this twice now and coming in, mean, and this is true when you reread a book, but I knew where it was going and I knew how heartbreaking her story was going to be. the second time around, you know, some of these choices that she's making and some of these thoughts that she's thinking, I'm just like, Frankie, oh, oh. Yeah, it's almost double heartbreaking the second time too. Yeah. I had so much hope for her the first time. And I mean, even...

War aside, mean, some of the things that Frankie dealt with as a woman in general, and she has these moments where she talks about, know, it's 1972, you know, things are changing, women have more choices and like, we can do these things. But some of the things she is saying that about are actually fights that women are still fighting today in very real ways. And

I don't care if you want to put your head in sand and feel like it's not. These are the facts. So I just thought that was so interesting. She made some of those comments. And I know it was I think it was intentional and like Kristin Hannah's part. But she just she just has so much hope that she can that things can be different. Like you said, coming into this like with a lot of naivety and then.

quickly realizing that what she believed and what she was led to believe is not necessarily true. Not just about the war, but I think herself and who she is as a person and who she can be. And I mean, I was really proud of her. You know, I'm always looking for that strong, confident woman. And while Frankie comes into the novel as naive as...

maybe a person who has a life who has been planned for them, she quickly realizes that, you know, with the women can be heroes, it kind of just sets off this flicker with inside of her that makes her say, hey, I can have something different for myself. And it leads her down a path where she really gets to decide she has setbacks for sure, which we're going to discuss. But she really gets to decide what Frankie wants to be true in her life.

And she actually says this at one point, life is too short to miss out on anything because of an older generation's rules. That's good. And I have said very similar things in my life, about my life. And so I just was very proud of Frankie. Yeah. So Frankie's brother Finley, his best friend before he goes to war is Rye, who ends up playing a bigger role in the book later on.

but when they're standing in her dad's office, he says, "Women can be heroes too." Why do you feel like this struck such a chord with Frankie? I think because of this sort of desire to make her father proud and make her parents proud, I feel like she wanted to find her way onto the hero's wall without just marrying into it.

I feel like she already knew early on that she didn't want to just be a housewife, that she wanted more out of life, but didn't really know how to get it because her traditional upbringing, it was never modeled for her. Right. All she saw were, I'm sure, teachers and nurses and secretaries. These are the acceptable paths for you. even says that, be a nurse and then get married, get your MRS. You're just doing school. Her mom was even telling her, why are you...

taking so many classes, you need to take less classes and date more. Yeah. my God. You're just doing that. So you get married. Her mom, we'll get to her. I know. I agree with you though. I think that Frankie wants to be, she wants her parents to be proud of her. I think that is like the main driver. She sees it happening with this hero's wall and their family is very integrated within the military community.

And that's something that comes up a lot and is revered. And yeah, I think she just wants her parents to like think about her the way they think about the guys that are on that wall. Yeah, which just makes her coming home and the reception that she got coming home all the more tragic, which I know we'll get to some more later. Yes. All right. So once in Vietnam, Frankie becomes extremely close to two other nurses, Ethel and Barb. How did their friendship help them survive the war and cope with its aftermath?

So I know that I've shared in previous episodes how much I wish I had close friendships and this is no different. Like Ethel and Barb. Applications are still being accepted to be Jon's bestie. I haven't gotten any yet. Obviously like the bond between veterans is something that no civilian can ever really truly comprehend, I don't think. So it gives it like this extra layer of depth and uniqueness. But man, these women were

fucking powerhouses and not just their nursing expertise, right? Their personalities were just really a great balance for Frankie. We had Barb who was tough and outspoken. She was fiercely loyal and she used humor and kind of blunt honesty to help keep their spirits up in the war zone. even thought that Barb didn't like her at first. She did, I know. Which I probably would have thought the same way. How strong she came off, that is very true.

And that's why I think Ethel was such a good counterbalance to that. She was the warm, compassionate one. She was the balancing force. Her friendship with Frankie was nurturing, almost motherly in a way. They gave her a safe place to heal. They also helped her build up her confidence during the war. They really became her chosen family, as opposed to where the things that she wasn't getting from her parents or really ultimately the...

world around her. Like, Ethel and Barb were those rocks for her. They helped her see and helped her choose life and purpose over isolation and despair. Yeah. I also feel like it's kind of portrayed in the book, or you get the sense that Barb and Ethel come back to the turmoil of what was going on. They're not getting a hero's reception as Frankie's actually expecting when she comes home. But...

I feel like they had family members who were proud of them, who wrapped their arms around them, where Frankie comes home and her parents actually had told people she was in Florence, like some kind of program. She wasn't even in the war. And then they just ignore, they don't want to hear about Vietnam, they want to ignore it. So Ethel and Barb become the only people that Frankie can really talk to. So not only are the obviously,

super impactful during her time in Vietnam, but even more so because it is her only outlet to the reality that she is living right now. No one else wants to hear about it. The closest people to her. There's a bunch of things that happen, which we're going to get to with like Rai and that, that she has no one else because the people who are supposed to be there for her most, her parents are not. So I think the bond really gets forged.

at its deepest level once they come back. Yeah, I really think Frankie would have Frankie would be dead without that's what I actually when you were so I had that exact same thought. Yeah, that she just wouldn't have made it. She wouldn't have made it. So while in Vietnam, Frankie also gets close to a married doctor named Jamie. What were your thoughts on their dynamic and their budding romance? I felt like their connection was deep and emotional, but it was sort of fueled by the high

adrenaline and emotions of war. I do think that Jamie provided her, was so green, right? So green. And I think Jamie was really the first to see her and believe in her and sort of instilled the confidence that she needed to not just survive, but thrive in the war zone. And when he was taken from her unexpectedly, I feel like that was really the catalyst of her unraveling. I feel like that was when she started to question

to really question what she believed the war to be and what her purpose there was and how could someone so wonderful just be taken from her so unexpectedly that it pushed her into a sort of like level of grief that she really didn't know how to handle. Jamie was a pivotal character to her in both a positive and sort of that negative way. It was a really interesting dynamic. I mean, I don't think it was negative. I think that it was, you know, she grieved for him and she...

is grieving at a time where she really doesn't have the space to because she's in the middle of a war zone and fighting in said war zone. So I guess it's not even the emotion. I just don't think he had a negative impact. I think he had an extremely positive impact. Look, you are with people who you are experiencing as we just talked about.

They are the only people who can even remotely understand what is going on and what is happening in the like the thoughts and feelings and circumstances and experiences that you're having are only being seen by those other people. However, there's also a very real possibility that you could wake up and die tomorrow. So I realize that infidelity runs high in war zones.

But I also kind of get it because I I just didn't say I get it. I'm like, I'm not judging anyone because of the set of circumstances that these people are living with. It's really hard to say, that's so wrong. It's like, well, it's like if you knew you were gonna die tomorrow, are you not gonna do something maybe that would bring you pleasure? I'm not gonna judge someone for that. Yeah, I agree. So as you mentioned, Frankie believes that Jamie dies. He...

gets, I think they had a bomb that hit the hospital and he gets brought in and they airlift him, but it's implied or she sees the people that are doing CPR on him, but they stop and kind of put their hands up like he's gone. So then Frankie is eventually transferred to another hospital and that's where she runs into her brother's friend, Ry again.

While she's resistant at first because Rye is engaged, he tells her the engagement is off and they start a romance. Did you trust Rye or did you have suspicions about him from the beginning? Rye. I wanted to trust him. I wanted to sort of ground myself that he was a childhood friend. He was a friend of her brother's. Like, he knew her from...

a time period before the war. He's the reason she's there too. Yeah. Women can be heroes. Yep. 100%. Their relationship, I think to call it tumultuous would be a bit of an understatement. think. Why would you call it tumultuous? Tumultuous. Tumultuous. Tumultuous. Why would you call it a T word? Because of the like. The correctature. Let's not go there.

John thinks the word caricature as in a drawing is correctature and he didn't believe me to the point where he Googled it to make sure and did the pronunciation check. I just wanted to make sure you didn't sound very confident yourself. So I was using Google. You were the one who was saying no, it's not. It's correctature. Anyway, tumultuous. Yes, I because.

Because of how like how broken he left her and it was it was very up and down I feel like she was really torn I think and he used her really as an escape in my opinion of from his own life burdens and his own trauma and That's why I think it was the T word when I

When I think of people who have a tumultuous relationship, I think that they fight a lot and they have conflict in the relationship. They have things they can't talk through and work through. Like none of those things happened with Ry and Frankie. I think that he's been lying, had lied to her because he's right. He was not engaged. He was married with a child. but I don't think that that's like this.

up and down what I think of a tumultuous relationship. just think that like he's a liar and she had to deal with the fallout of that. Right. Yeah. And I guess maybe it's the fallout that I'm thinking of as sort of the how I viewed their relationship and how his manipulations I feel like were what sort of were the root of of maybe it's like emotional tumultuousness is don't know. Emotional trauma.

No, well, yeah, obviously there was that, that's not what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So the first time I read it, I trusted Rye. You know, at first, like you said, he's this childhood friend. He is the one who really sets plants to seed that she could go be and do something different. He seems so genuine.

He says he'd call off his engagement and then he convinces, you know, her commanding officer or whatever that she needs to take R &R so they go to Hawaii together or he surprises her in Hawaii. so I have these positive feelings toward him. And then when I find out he's dead and then he actually is coming home because he was a prisoner of war and then boom, he's married and has a kid. I was devastated for Frankie, devastated. And then the second time I read it,

came in with a different set of facts. And so you pick up things, which we've talked about, and there's these like small little moments where I'm like, ooh, Kristin Hannah, you dirty little rat. So Frankie's discussing how she feels about Rye with Barb. Now remember, Rye happens after Jamie, and Frankie is talking to Barb about Rye.

and how she felt and she says things feel different than with Jamie. And she said, Ry looks at me like he's hungry. And Barb says that's lust. Right. And it made me think to me that was foreshadowing because Frankie recognizes in that moment that what she's feeling and what she sees in Ry is actually different than love. It's different.

than what she felt with Jamie and what she saw in Jamie's eyes and how Jamie spoke with her and interacted with her. But she's so naive at this point in an experience, she doesn't understand the difference between the two. So I think that we're like, we actually get that those like a little tiny moment. And again, maybe I'm totally reading into this, but I think that was like super intentional because later on we hear when...

Frankie's in therapy, know, Ry actually never told her he loved her. So she heard what she wanted to hear. And unfortunately, had he just been truthful with her, she wouldn't have had to go through some of the things she went through. But it was when I read that the second time, was like, god damn it. It was right there. So the book is divided into two parts during the war and then it's aftermath.

Let's first talk about Frankie's return home and the unheroes welcome she receives. What were your thoughts? Yes, exactly. What were your thoughts as you read the horrible treatment she received? was infuriating. It was heartbreaking. was gut wrenching. was all the feels. She came home, I think even with the premise that her parents would be proud of her and they...

were just so dismissive. Like she really, she was left without a sort of place to belong. And it even happened as soon as she got off the plane, right? She was spat at by the protestors who were blaming the soldiers simply because of their participation. And really the ones that really got me were the moments in when she went to the VA, when she finally acknowledged that she needed help and she was just so blatantly dismissed.

and ignored and not even seen as a real... I like what she says every time though. She says, if you didn't meet someone like me, you were lucky. Yeah, that's true. I do remember that quote. And then you can see the men who did meet people like her because they thanked her or they said, you saved my buddy or my friend or whatever. But they were few and far between. Yes, very few and far between. The majority were denied. Even when she goes to a protest too. Right. Yeah. This is for veterans.

It's just, it's mind boggling. It really is. It's just, it was a never ending onslaught for Frankie. Every path she tried to take to feel heard or be seen was just, was just met with dismissal and it broke her. It broke me. And I was like, I wasn't even quote unquote living it. Like it broke her to point of suicide. It was shocking. It was just, it was utterly shocking. And I know I'm looking at it through a 20, 25 lens and

but still it's just thinking about it again. I don't know if I could reread this book, honestly. I don't know if that I would have the emotional stamina to do it. I hear you because I think this is the best book I read in 2024. And we've already said it's heartbreaking. I don't want to say it's hard to read because it is so good. I wanted to keep reading, but I knew what was coming. Not just the heartbreak with Rye and Jamie and those things.

But the way Frankie was treated, the utter dismissal as her, as someone who has served for what she did for her country, for the role that she played in the people, the lives that she saved. Like how she would stand there with every soldier that was passing, hold their hand, tell them. Watching people die is tremendous. That's drama in itself. Totally. Didn't she dealt with it on a daily basis? Multiple and men in pieces.

Yes. Coming in, carrying their foot or whatever. Or their buddies. I just couldn't even imagine. think you alluded to, you enjoyed reading it and you wanted to keep reading it. I think for me, I wanted to keep reading it because I'm like, there's got to be a win after this. There's got to get better. it just really never does. Like the second time she goes to the VA. I'm like, it's a few years later, the war is over.

And the doctor at first seems promising, but then it was just get over it. Right now. Again, I'm not excusing anyone's behavior during that time. We don't, we didn't know then really what PTSD was. Yes. Mental health, like all those things. But it's, it's really for me that just outright dismissal that women were not there. Women did not serve. They were invisible. Right. So the big plot twist is that Rye actually did survive the war.

But he also lied to Frankie and he's married with a child. Let's discuss Ry's manipulation. Lord. In more detail, because I know we've touched on it already. Sure. But do you actually think he ever really cared about Frankie or was she merely an object to him? I think she was an object to him. I think the level of care was probably rooted more in that he knew her before the war.

I think it ended there. I really, so in preparation for this question, I really wanted, I didn't want to just sort of have it be a beradment of Rye because we easily could do that for probably 20 minutes straight. But I really wanted to try to look through the lens of his own trauma. feel like he was acting in, I feel like the only way that he knew how, which was the living for the moment.

He was literally literally and figuratively living two lives, right? He had his home life and he had his war life. And I don't think that he really understood how to reintegrate into civilian life either, just like Frankie didn't. And are you defending him? I'm not defending. I am looking through a different lens. I'm not judging you at all. I'm going to say some things too. It was their shared experience. Like we sort of touched on in the beginning of this. was, it was what

hold them together, two people that had lived through some of the most horrific things that shared a connection during those horrific things. I don't know that you could just sort of dismiss that, it was clearly manipulation. was an escape for him from his real life. So their war experience was their shared connection. It was really sort of the underpinning of their relationship. It was almost like the foundation of the trust that they were

attempting to build between each other. But it was that trust and that shared connection that he ultimately chose to abuse. He was a man. He could do this thing and move on. He had an alternate life and an alternate safe place to land if this didn't work out. She didn't. She had no other place to land with this. the fact that he kept using that and lying to her and giving her this false hope was just cruel.

I think I've gone back and forth. Do I think he is this like super manipulator that is gaslighting her blood? No, I think he's a man who wanted the best of... When he comes back, he's a man who wants the best of both worlds. He is unhappy, I think, in his marriage, but he's continuing to sleep with his wife and they have another child, which ends up being the reason why Frankie calls it off for real.

I think he cares about Frankie. I think he loves Frankie in his own fucked up way, but not in the way that she needs someone to love her because he's also, again, married. And I think he's just like too much of a coward to get divorced. So it's, he just, feel like he knew how to manipulate Frankie. I almost have a little bit of sympathy for him when they were in war because again, you don't know if you're gonna die tomorrow.

And I think it's wrong that he lied to her. Don't get me wrong. She was married multiple times. He lied, by the way. Right. for sure. Again, I'm not excusing his behavior, but I think that like his feelings for her then versus feelings when it came back, I think he thinks I'm going to do this thing and then go live my life. And then when he comes back, it's like, I actually don't like my life. And now this is the one I have to have because I can't have a wife.

who stuck beside me while I was a prisoner of war and then leave her, which he talks about. But I think for Frankie though, Rye is one of the only people who is acknowledging her service also, who is understanding what, not just like understanding what she went through, but acknowledges that she was there. And she's at this point where she's so vulnerable. She's had the miscarriage with Henry. I think, yeah, I just think that like her vulnerability

At that point, she thinks Jamie died, Rye died, Rye actually didn't die. And she comes back and everyone dismisses her experience and the things that she went through. And I think she's just in this completely vulnerable state and Rye just completely takes advantage of that. Because we have the knowledge we have now of trauma as readers, we actually see Frankie's PTSD manifest almost immediately once she returns.

but she has no idea this is happening and she doesn't really understand it. Do you think her struggles with PTSD and addiction were portrayed realistically? Absolutely. I think that's one of things I really loved about this book. didn't... Shy away from it. It didn't portray addiction the way Hollywood sometimes can, that it's overly dramatic or it's easily resolved. And Frankie's battles were slow, brutal, filled with relapses. There was no...

quick or easy recovery art for Frankie. And I think that was part of what made it real. You her nightmares and her flashbacks, she had real survivor's guilt multiple times over. I think her struggles to feel safe and welcome, you know, especially at home. think, you know, grief really thrives on isolation and around every turn. That's all she felt was just being alone. And so I...

I don't think I've read a book in a while, and maybe there's another one that we just talked about in our last special contest episode that might change with this as I don't think there's been a book that I've read in a while that has just drained me emotionally so much because it felt so real. Yeah, I I hinted at this a little, but I appreciated the author, Chris and Hannah didn't shy away from the portrayal of it as you said.

but also that it was like really dramatized in a good way, I'll say, because these things happen and it's not always what we see on TV and it's not always what you read in books. Like it's this quick thing or it's like this side character and here we just have like someone who is in the throes of it and nothing is going her way. What were your thoughts on Frankie's relationship with Henry and do you think that she could have been happy with him long-term?

I think Henry was one of the few good men in Frankie's life. That's a different movie. Henry was kind. He was loyal, not that dissimilar from Jamie. He doesn't romanticize or objectify Frankie, but he sees her as an equal. He respects her. He gave her a sense of belonging that she...

so desperately wanted. He doesn't dismiss her because she's a woman like so many other people did. He recognizes that she has pain and trauma. And I almost feel like Henry was a male version of Barb and Ethel in the sense that the way that they supported her and could lift her up, feel like Henry could have been that way. Obviously a little bit different because he didn't go through the war the way those other three did. But there were characteristics I thought that were similar. I think he's an ally to her. An ally. That's a good word. Yeah.

Could she have been happy long-term? That's a really tough question because I feel like she would have been loved and she would have been seen and had a wonderful life with Henry, but I feel like it would have been a little hollow. I don't know why I feel that way, but I feel like there was just something that she wasn't going to allow him in far enough to get as close to her.

Do you think that that's true though because of some of her unresolved trauma? Yeah. Meaning though, if they would have been married and she would have been able to work through those things, especially since he's psychiatrist, psychologist, in a space with someone who is obviously ultra supportive of her, I do feel like she could eventually got there. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I don't know. Yeah. So...

To answer my own question, I do think she could have been happy with him. I think that it would have taken time, but I think that he would have made her feel, like continued to make her feel safe and appreciated. And I think that she wasn't, like you're saying, actually think she just wasn't open to love because she has so much trauma and she hasn't figured out yet that the love she had for Ry wasn't actually that.

because he was lying to her and what they had was different. I'm not saying it wasn't real. I'm saying it's different than she thought it was. And you know, there's all different kinds of love. Totally. Yeah, you're right. right. So I liked Henry's character. I did too. And I liked him even more when he helps her, even though she broke his heart. Yeah. Which I think just go, well, it just speaks to his character, but shows how much

He really understood what was happening with her and how bad the effects of war are. How did you feel about the evolution of Frankie's relationship with her parents? Do you think that the fact that they reconciled was toxic or healthy? I guess how did you feel about the fact that they reconciled? Okay, I'll answer that second. I thought her relationship with her parents was just...

utterly devastating. Not only did they disapprove of her decision to go to war in the first place or to even enlist, they practically found it disgraceful. Not practically. They did find it disgraceful. They lied to people. lied to friends and other people asking about where she was because they didn't want that tarnished on their name, which is just fucking crazy.

her mother, she was so cruel, so cold. mean, she really, she shames Frankie. She doesn't want to hear about her pain. She doesn't, she just, she's the worst one, I think, that dismisses Frankie. Yes, the VA doctors were bad, but I think the dismissal of her mother and her father too, but her father was more of a passive disapproval. His silence was his way of like, rejecting Very common for that.

period, for men in that time period. Again, not excusing behavior, just saying. it just sort of reinforced the gaslighting that went on of women, and of women veterans in particular by society. just women's experiences, I would say. The reconciliation, I do think it was healthy because she began to detach from their expectations of her and started to sort of claim her own

identity through that reconciliation. Instead of really like seeking their approval, she realized that she doesn't need their validation to still be a whole person or to still have a whole life. And so I think she started to be able to understand like you were just eluding to that that's how they grew up. That was their experience. That's all they knew. And I think she began to accept that as part of the reconciliation, as opposed to seeing it as a reflection of her failing.

or their disappointment in her, if that makes sense. What do you think? I guess it's part of it, but what I guess what I mean by reconciliation is at the end where her parents actually recognize like her service. But you're not wrong in the fact that there is a shift in them when they pick her up from the rehabilitation center and her mom says, don't know how that still smells like mildew or whatever, which is...

I think Frankie's bag that she had in Vietnam, which is literally the first time they even like acknowledge anything surrounding her being there. so Frankie calls it out like it's this small moment that actually it opened the door. Yeah, it opened the door. And then, you know, they support her selling the house that they bought her and moving to wherever she wants to go to be and, you know, do her own thing.

It's not really until she goes to the Veterans Memorial in the early 1980s that they're there and they recognize it. Like, she served. That she served, that she was. Yeah. Geez, I'm getting teary-eyed just thinking about it. up to her and thanks her. Yeah. I'm literally getting a little teary. Me too.

It was very moving. Out of all the other shit that she went through to have that moment was really touching. Listen, parents, you might not like the causes that your children are fighting for, but if they're fighting for something, it's passionate to them and you should be proud of them. Hoorah. And you should tell them that.

Okay, so she's in Vietnam. She's at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial here in Washington, D.C. And not only does her parents finally recognize her service, but Frankie gets what we can only think is a happy ending to the story. What did you think about the ending? Did you think it was realistic? I did. I did think it was realistic. It was bittersweet. I thought it was...

befitting of her journey as a whole. Not everything really wrapped up neatly in a bow, but nothing in her life was really wrapped up neatly in a bow when she decided to enlist. And I think that another part of the ending, not just the moment at the memorial, but the retreat that she starts in. Yep. For women. Montana. Yeah, the retreat for women. Like it was meaningful because

I don't know that she believed that she was fully healed. Doing something for other people can be healing. Yes, right. Thank you. That's what I was trying to get out of my mouth. You know me so well. It was bittersweet. think the moment with her parents acknowledging, I think the moment at the very end where she discovers that Jamie actually isn't dead is... That's the moment I'm talking about.

Well, there it is. I teed it up for you. So I really like the ending because again, I think if you're a careful reader, you will remember when they very first meet in Vietnam that Jamie says to her in a different time and place, could we have like, could we have been together? And then at the end of the book when they meet and he says he's divorced, she says she's never been married and she says you could have looked me up and he says,

I wasn't ready. And so it makes me think that he was experiencing the extremeness of PTSD or trauma that we see Frankie dealing with. Because think about it, if he would have looked her up at any point in time up until probably then, she wouldn't have been ready to be with him. Totally. So it goes back to like, now they're actually in that place in time.

Okay, I love hearing you say that because I remember when I finished this book, I think the thing that I said to you was, I didn't like that Jamie popped up at the end. And now you've just convinced me otherwise.

I also, if you go back and reread it, which I'm sure you're not going to, but when Frankie is at her lowest moments, it is Jamie's voice in her head. The No Fear McGrath. I got you. She repeats his words in her head. He is this safe landing place for her, and it's the wrong person, sorry, the wrong time for them to be together.

Frankie certainly wouldn't have been able to have a relationship had he been the one to come back at that point in time and not Ry. But he has been the one in her head throughout the whole book. That is very astute of you. Thank you. I read some.

Do you have any favorite quotes or maybe passages that you would like to share that maybe you booked marked as you were reading? There are. One is, no one tells you how loud war is, how the sound of it lives inside of you long after the fighting stops. I just, think that line perfectly encapsulates PTSD and the lasting effects of not just war, but of trauma in general that just because you

heal from something doesn't mean it goes away. It's still a part of you. It's inside of you. It's still who you are. And I think that's... Yeah, like you're saying that's a part of who you are now. You carry that with you. And everything that you say and do and think is going to be through that lens. So, would you recommend this book to our listeners? No.

Of course. You lie. Absolutely. I would recommend this book. It broke me in such a wonderful way. don't know that I would go so far as to say it was the best book that I read last year, but I would say that it What would you say was better? I knew you were going to ask me that. Why did have to say that? And you read it this year, so. Did I? Yes. shit.

my God, I don't even know anymore. I read it last year and this year, but also I want to know what book you read last year that you think was better. I don't know. I have to go back and check my Goodreads because I could, if I thought I read this one last year, I probably don't even remember all the ones that I read. Anyway, I would say it was the book that had the most emotional impact on me while I read it. But yes, yes, I would absolutely recommend this book. I assume you would too because you recommended it to me.

I have recommended this book to a lot of people. Nice. I also recommend if you are interested in historical fiction and you specifically like this book or you listen to this now you're interested in reading the women, you also check out the Nightingale, which is probably my favorite one by Kristin Hannah. The women has to be a very close second. Check out The Great Alone. Check out The Four Winds. Anything she writes, you should read.

Yeah, I mean, if this is a testament to her writing, I would absolutely read another book of hers. But you should for sure read The Nightingale. We have to get on that. And the 10th anniversary one just released. So it's now back on the New York Times bestseller list. Nice. In all my spare time. Well, we wanted to remind everyone that the next two books in our lineup are Rebel Witch by Kristen Ciccarelli and The Family Experiment by John Mars.

And don't forget that a free way to support our show is by leaving us a review and rating us on Apple Podcasts. Also, if you don't want to rate us, but you have a question, as we mentioned, you can email us at booksimakemyhusbandread at gmail.com. We would love to hear from you. That's all I have, though. That's another one in the books. Yes, we spilled all the plot twists. We did. Now we got to go mop them up. Yes. Well, who knows? Maybe this will be the one your husband reads.

Absolutely should. It absolutely should. Highly it. Take care. Bye.

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