Iron Flame

Kristy (00:00)
If I told you every single thing that went through my brain, you would divorce me tomorrow.

Jon (00:04)
I don't want to be in that mess.

Kristy (00:07)
Right?

Like, no.

Hello listeners and welcome to season two of Books I Make My Husband Read. I'm your host Kristy and this is my co-host, my husband Jon, whom I make read all the books.

Jon (00:33)
What's up everybody? We are back for season two and I'm actually pretty excited for the books that you've got on the agenda for this season.

Kristy (00:42)
You know, that's a recorded confession and you can't go back on it now.

Jon (00:48)
You did. You got me. I'm sure it's going to come back and bite me.

Kristy (00:51)
Yes, most likely. Well, to kick off season two, we'll be discussing book two in the lightning hot Empyrean series, Iron Flame by Rebecca Yarros. Yarros's third book in the series, Onyx Storm, just released about three weeks ago. And I know a lot of you out there went back to reread Fourth Wing and Iron Flame, so we thought it would be the perfect time to discuss this one.

Jon (01:13)
Yeah, plus, Fourth Wing was the first episode we did in season one, so it seemed to make sense that we would do this in season two.

Kristy (01:20)
Yes, exactly. So if you're listening and you didn't catch our discussion of Fourth Wing, pause here, go listen to the Fourth Wing episode and then come back. That's a good call on that.

Jon (01:28)
Yeah, just be sure you come back.

Thanks. So before we get into our discussion about dragons and signets, we wanted to let everybody know that this season we're doing things a little bit differently.

Kristy (01:40)
Well, not necessarily differently, I think, but we're more prepared this season.

Jon (01:44)
Totally. And if you go to our website, booksimakemyhusbandread.com, you'll be able to see all the books you've got planned for me to read this season.

Kristy (01:56)
Subject to change, no exchanges or refunds.

Jon (01:59)
But for right now, in case you don't go to our website to check out all the things, here are the next two books that we will be covering. It's the first, will be The Crash by Freida McFadden, which just came out, right? A couple weeks ago. And then The Women by Kristin Hannah.

Kristy (02:14)
January 28th.

Yeah, so I'm really excited for you to read both, but especially for the women. It was one of my favorites for last year. And if you caught our season one summary episode in December, then you know I actually gave Jon a choice between this book and The Frozen River. And he ended up picking The Frozen River. I know we both liked The Frozen River, but I think you'll like this one even more. It honestly kind of wrecked me, but more on that when we record it.

Jon (02:43)
Got it. Looking forward to it. But in the meantime, like I mentioned, you can keep up with all the books we're going to cover this season on our website at books I make my husband read and of course following us. The.com that's an important part. And then following us on Instagram obviously at the same handle @booksImakemyhusbandread.

Kristy (02:53)
Books I make my husband read.com. Right.

Yes, and while you're there, drop us a comment or send us a DM if you have a question that you'd us to answer on our show, or you can email us at booksandmakemyhusbandread @gmail.com and we'll be sure to answer any burning questions in an upcoming episode.

Jon (03:18)
Oh, I see what you did there. What a great segue into books about dragons. So for those who are new to our show and the formatting, each episode, we'll start with a spoiler free summary of the book. And from there, we'll dive into our discussion, which will absolutely 100 % have spoilers. But don't worry, there will be an audio cue and we'll be sure to let you know when you can exit and then come back after you've read.

Kristy (03:44)
Yes, and I also want to mention that as we are talking right now and recording this, neither Jon or I have read Onyx Storm. So you don't have to worry that anything we talk about here, if you've read Iron Flame but you haven't read Onyx Storm, will come into play with either our predictions or any of the things that we're discussing. no, totally no spoilers on Onyx Storm either.

Jon (04:08)
Nice, right on. So now for our spoiler free summary of Iron Flame.

Kristy (04:15)
Everyone expected Violet Sorrengail to die during her first year at Basgiath War College, Violet included, but threshing was only the first impossible test meant to weed out the weak willed, the unworthy, and the unlucky.

Jon (04:27)
Now the real training begins and Violet's already wondering how she's going to make it through. It's not just that it's grueling and maliciously brutal or even that it's designed to stretch the rider's capacity for pain beyond endurance. It's the new Vice Commandant who's made it his personal mission to teach Violet exactly how powerless she is unless she betrays the man she loves.

Kristy (04:51)
Although Violet's body might be weaker and frailer than everyone else's, she still has her wits and a will of iron. And leadership is forgetting the most important lesson Basgiath has taught her. Dragon Riders make their own rule.

Jon (05:04)
Damn straight, but a determination to survive won't be enough this year because Violet knows the real secret hidden for centuries at Basgiath war college and nothing not even dragon fire may be enough to save them in the end

Anyways, I'm back to the show. I'm excited to start discussing this. from this point forward, anything from here will contain spoilers. Consider yourself warned.

Kristy (05:39)
you

So this is a part in the show where we talk about what we thought or rated the book. And do you want to go first? Usually we rotate, but it's a new season. So what do you think? you want to go talk about it?

Jon (05:58)
So my first thought is that it's so fucking long, but there's like, there's so much that happens in it too. And it's almost like, yes, it's long, but I don't think at any point throughout listening to it that I feel that it was dragging on too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are some parts which I'll cover later on, but

Kristy (06:15)
or anything. Get this get through this.

The sex.

Jon (06:24)
In rating this, actually found myself wavering. I'm in that. Wait, which part? the other stuff. You'll get to it.

Kristy (06:27)
interest.

No, nevermind. It went over your head, I think.

Jon (06:34)
Okay, so I think I literally switched my rating two or three times on good rates between a four and a five. Like, it's a five to me because of the sheer impressiveness that is the world that Rebecca Yarros is building, the depth that we continue to uncover about each character, like Dain like her mother, even the depth of the story of like the dragons. And we're starting to learn more about the backstory and what sort of things go on behind the scenes in the Empyrean. But then like...

I tossed between a four because I felt like there were some fair amount of like repetitious parts throughout the book, like pilots countless internal debate of trusting Xaden or not her constant full disclosure or like her constant, it's all my fault. like, no, totally. Or that like, I started it last summer and I didn't finish it until January. that's

Kristy (07:09)
Full disclosure.

Yeah, which they didn't culture out on but yeah, yeah

That was a

little unfair assessment. that's because we were doing this.

Jon (07:28)
this

podcast. Yeah, I didn't have time. Yeah, totally. I know. So all that said, I did, I landed on a five, you whatever plenty of annoyances throughout, I don't think it tipped the scales enough though to outweigh the depth and the vastness and, you know, you're starting to really get a taste of the world and looking back at Fourth Wing, Fourth Wing just felt like a whole, it was like a whole book on just setup and

Kristy (07:51)
I mean, it is. When you get into these long epic fantasy books, you are in it for the long haul. You can't expect a lot of stuff to happen, especially I feel like in books one and two, even though a fair amount does here, because there's so much world building, there's so much character building, there's usually a lot of characters, there's the backstory, there's the world itself and what it's like, what the customs are, history. So it's a lot.

Jon (08:19)
Yeah, and I knew that reading Fourth Wing, but there is still like, Fourth Wing by itself is still like a really good book. I didn't feel it at the time I was reading it that was all set up. It's not until we went through Iron Flame where you start to get a little bit deeper and then it felt like I understood the pieces that she was putting in place from the first one, especially like a deeper understanding of Mum.

Kristy (08:43)
Deep understanding

of what? Mom. Mom. You said mom like you're Australian. I mean, if you can start talking like Chris Hemsworth tomorrow, I'm game. OK.

Jon (08:55)
coming at. Anyway, so yeah, I landed on a five. It's it's definitely warrants that for me. What about you give me your initial thoughts before we get into the depth.

Kristy (09:05)
I gave it a five the first time I read it. And then the second time I was so annoyed with Violet, which we're gonna get into in a second, that I almost gave it a four. And then I got to the last 50 pages and all the stuff that happens. And especially with her mom, I was like, it's a five. But it's really because I think there is so much here. It kept me entertained the whole time. I constantly wanted to pick it back up and continue to read it.

I felt excited about it. I felt excited about the characters and where they were going and the stories they were telling despite some of them being annoying, which happens. I mean, you're not going like all the characters. I think my biggest criticism would be that there are a lot of characters in this book. There are also a lot of dragons in this book. You have to know the names too. And we don't I don't feel like we hear enough from those characters.

that when something happens to them, I'm like, that's that person. Sometimes I'm like, wait, who was that? And so there's a few characters like that. Now, I'm not saying that I am well versed in who like Rhiannon is, who Jesenia is, but some of the other even more minor characters, I feel like I didn't hear enough from and then something would happen to them. And then I'd have to like pause and think about who that was and whatnot. So I definitely loved it. I definitely am ready.

to read Onyx Storm, which by the time this publishes, I probably already would have. And I'm excited to talk about these questions.

Jon (10:37)
Okay, hit me, let's get into it.

Kristy (10:40)
So first thing I have to get off my chest is how fucking annoying I thought Violet was for the majority of the book. I really began to dislike her and honestly I wanted to slap her at multiple points. The whole full disclosure thing was so overdone. Yes, it drove me crazy. It felt so immature, which she it checks out. She's in her 20s. But newsflash, you don't get to know everything.

Jon (10:58)
And yet she's keeping her own secrets.

Kristy (11:09)
for obviously good reasons. Can you imagine if Xaden would have told her like in the beginning of the book about his signet and she didn't know how to shield, can you imagine what would have happened?

Jon (11:20)
Yeah, it was really bad. Dangerous. Good job.

Kristy (11:22)
Okay, but now that I have that off my chest.

My question is, because this has a question, it's not just a rant, is which side of the full disclosure slash honesty conflict between Violet and Xaden did you fall on?

Jon (11:37)
Okay, so I 100 % agree with you that you don't get to know everything. And I think it's completely unfair to expect that of another individual. That said, I do think though, in regards to Violet, that she does admit several times throughout the book that she needs information to function and that knowledge has always been

her sort of weapon of choice, right, which kind of speaks to her scribe upbringing. Like she always relied on books and facts. Like she even repeats them, you know, these facts in her head when she's stressed about something or trying to calm down. And in Fourth Wing, like it showcased the death of every truth that Violet believed to be true, that the archives had everything, that, you know, Venin were fables, that.

her brother was dead. Like her whole world basically came collapsing around and she's like grasping at straws for truth. And I think that's part of like, don't get me wrong, I still think she was fucking annoying, but I think that that's part of what played into that constant like, I need the truth, I need the truth, I want all the truth, because all the truth that she knew up to that point were gone. And she's like trying to clamor onto something.

Kristy (12:49)
Be that as it may. I think she's like, well, I don't know what to ask and blah, blah, But I mean, I hear you on that and you're right. Like she is a consumer of knowledge. Like that is power to her. That is something her.

Jon (12:55)
Yeah

Kristy (13:06)
father instilled in her that like a scribe holds all the power and she believes that but she still is this like keeper of knowledge and that helps it has come in multiple times in the book where her knowledge has saved her because it allowed her to fight back or whatever in ways that her body her physical body won't let her because of you know this whatever she has.

However, you can't know everything. So I do feel like Xaden has told her what she needs to know when she needs to know it. Can you imagine if she was in the middle of her first year and he said, by the way, your brother is alive. Like she wouldn't have been able to process what that means. So the whole full disclosure thing is I think a can of trash drove me crazy. So.

I think we all just, you know, we have things that like are for ourselves too, but I just thought it showed a lack of a level of immaturity. Again, checks out she's 20 or whatever, but also that she was holding secrets herself and keeping secrets from her friends, but wanted to have this like moral high ground from Xaden. I just didn't understand it. All right. So speaking of trust, and we've said this a little bit already, Violet decides not to tell her squad mates about what happened in Athebyne and about the Venin. Do you think she should have trusted them?

Jon (13:58)
.

Yeah.

Kristy (14:24)
earlier in the book than she did.

Jon (14:25)
Yeah, I think so. They like they never gave her a reason like that they couldn't be trusted or that she couldn't trust them. But I do think part of her decision to not tell them was less about trusting them and more about protecting them in the same way of like, they didn't know how to shield against Dain. And if they had this information, like they wouldn't they didn't even know what Dain signet was. So they wouldn't really know to stay away from him the same way that violated and so

There was a little bit of like that protective piece, which I totally understood in that dynamic, but it could have relieved so much anxiety for her through a lot of the timeline if she had been able to tell them sooner. What do you think?

Kristy (15:03)
I think that her deciding not to tell them had a lot to do with Xaden. And I think she should have told them earlier on. I think it have saved her a lot. like you said, these people have proven trustworthy. I mean, you are in an environment where if you don't trust the person next to you,

you think there's a very real possibility you'll die. Yes. So it is trust at the highest level. It doesn't mean full disclosure. There's a difference. You can be honest and trust me with someone and not have to tell them every single thing that goes through your brain. If I told you every single thing that went through my brain, you would divorce me tomorrow because I'm crazy.

Jon (15:42)
I don't want to be in that mess. But you're like, yeah, totally. Like, and she when she wound up telling them, she didn't tell them everything either. Like she gave them kind of select truths as well. Just for the same reasons. Like, there were pieces that they still didn't really need to know about Aretia, I think specifically it was.

Kristy (15:44)
Right? Like, no.

Well, I think we both just agreed that I you can trust them. Yeah, exactly. So as in Fourth Wing, Violet continues to realize that stories often change depending on who is telling them. You've heard me say before and on this podcast that history is only good as the historians. And it seems that some of the historians, aka the scribes of Navarre, are clearly suspect. Do you think there is one driving force behind why this happened?

Jon (16:29)
I don't think there's one, like a singular force, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was some kind of like puppeteering happening in the background, probably from the dragons, honestly. They're old enough. They're like supposedly wise enough to be.

Kristy (16:46)
which refers to their council.

Jon (16:48)
Right, they've been there a lot longer than humans have. Plus, and we'll get to this a little bit more, but like the premonition of Vandarna and that sort of thing. I just think there might be, if there is a force behind it, I wonder if it has to do with the dragons.

Kristy (17:02)
Interesting. I think that's a good possibility. I think that it also relates to her dad saying, you know, the scribes have all the power. So I don't know that it's like one driving force, but I think the reason we're here is something that scribes of the past did and had a hand in. And we see that come to fruition with some of the journals. But I don't know that it's... What I'm wondering is, is it...

a lie that is told from like generation to generation and you have to keep this lie or is it just something that happened you know centuries ago and now they're under this idea that this is like the way things are right and this is where we are now based on decisions made a long ago not that someone like is still like the truth holder.

Jon (17:52)
Okay, that makes sense.

Kristy (17:53)
All right, so continuing on those thoughts, there is some foreshadowing on the dangers and the impact of lost history. While they're in Basgiath, Professor Devera asked the second years what was sacrificed during the unification. One of the cadets with a rebellion relic said that they lost their culture, meaning like languages, festivals, songs, libraries. Knowing that language plays a major role in this book and the translation of languages,

Do you think this scene was significant for what plays out later with the journals?

Jon (18:25)
Yes, 100%. So I did a little research again while prepping for this episode. And there's a working theory out on the interwebs that I want to kind of share because I felt like I aligned with it. Hold on. What? What?

Kristy (18:39)
So hold on.

I have avoided the interwebs because I don't want people coming up with crazy theories that sway how I feel about something. So is it like plausible or is it like way out there?

Jon (18:56)
Okay, well...

No, I think it's plausible. If it was way out there, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't feel like I would align with it either.

Kristy (19:06)
I

say that and like we're discussing our own thing.

Jon (19:09)
Exactly. We're putting our own theories out on the other webs.

Okay, so the theory out there is that the continent will be united in the end along with the creation of like a separate universal or like a modern language. So at the beginning of each book, there's this quote, I'm going to read it verbatim. "The following text has been faithfully transcribed from Navarian into the modern language by Jesinia Neilwart.

curator of the scribe quadrant at Basgiath War College, all events are true and names have been preserved to honor the courage of those fallen. May their souls be commended to Malek." unquote. So the theory here is that in order to avoid

Kristy (19:51)
a little upset because I have thoughts about that.

Jon (19:55)
So the theory is that in order to avoid history repeating itself through the disappearances and eradication of old languages that Jesinia other curators will translate all these documents into the modern language, including their like real history, which, you know, is basically like what we're reading through this series, which I know plays to another question that we're going to lead up to. So I just thought that was a really interesting theory that like language will really sort of hold the core of the unification across.

the continent. So what was your twitch to that? Or like, what was your reaction as I was reading that?

Kristy (20:31)
don't

gonna say it now because I have a couple other questions prepared that talk about this, but I think that what you just read and pointed out is a major key to this story and what is actually going on, not just in Iron Flame, but in Fourth Wing and what we'll see in Onyx Storm and continuing throughout. I think those little parts you get at the beginning of each chapter or snippets that you have play a major role. Major role. And if you're really paying attention, then honestly,

you go back and reread it, you'll catch it more often because it's hard to remember everything that happens. But I think those they tell you a lot. It's like three sentences, but they tell you so much more than I feel like what is in the chapter. And back to the language culture part. So when something gets translated into another language and then you're interpreting it from that other language, there are things that are lost in translation. Sure. mean, that's where that literally comes.

Jon (21:31)
comes from.

Kristy (21:31)
Yeah.

So imagine like these have come from multiple language. There is always something that is missing and it's kind of like memories. When you remember something that happened to you, you're not remembering it from the first time you're remembering it from the last time you remembered it. And I think that's what we continue to see throughout this book. And I think what we're going to continue to see is like there's these things that are actually missing that have been lost. Some of them intentionally, I believe. So there is

pieces of this story that we don't know yet. Yeah. All right. So there's a scene after we learned that Jack Barlow is unfortunately still alive where an assassin that Colonel Atos actually sent has come to kill Violet and Jack ends up saving her. Why do you think he did this? And do you think that it has any future significance or tell us anything that we need to know about the venin in general? Because remember, Jack is venin now.

Jon (22:27)
My theory on that would be that he was probably under instructions from the Sage to keep her alive. That Venin crave power and V is the ultimate power.

I'm gonna start calling her V because it's short. It was Violet. Is the ultimate power and they need her in order to sort of like win this war. So kind of like Luke, if had Luke, if Luke had turned to the dark side, like the Empire probably would have taken over the empire or the galaxy. I feel like they needed to keep her alive. It wasn't out of the graciousness of his heart or anything. I think he was probably under orders to do so.

Kristy (23:00)
I totally believe that.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point and I think that is true as well. I also think that's why we see Xaden turn Venin first because they were targeting him because The Sage, remember, is invading their dreams, both Xaden and Violet, and keeps telling her, you will turn for something other than power. The implication is she will turn for love, which...

Jon (23:34)
Okay.

Kristy (23:35)
If Xaden is, she's going to and you're right, they crave power. So they're looking for her power because she's the most powerful writer. All right. Still on Jack Barlow, we learn from Nolan's letters that they knew that Jack was venin but they were trying to mend or cure him. Why do you think that is? And why do you think they would let him go back to being a writer knowing this? Also knowing that they're trying to deny that there are venin out there.

Jon (24:05)
So I think that's part of what plays into my answer to this one a little bit is that there were key people that knew venin were out there and I feel like this was as guys way of trying to figure out could they control the venin because they I don't feel like they I think they didn't feel like they could win or beat them so they were experimenting to see if they could be controlled or tamed or something to that effect now, maybe they didn't know how to kill them I was like the The metal and alloys and things like that was that like this

Was that a Brennan discovery in Aretia? Or do you think Basgiath knows about that too?

Kristy (24:41)
I bet they do know that. I also wonder, do you think they knew he was Venin in Fourth Wing? Because I think he's Venin in Fourth Wing. It's not after it happens in... Well, it's not just after that. I think it's before he even has the mountain fallen on him. So I came across this when I was reading... the interwebs? Not on the... I did not go looking for this. This was in a comment. Someone said he was Venin in Fourth Wing. And so I looked at...

where they referenced. And so I went back and I re-read that chapter. And if when he challenges Violet on the mat in Fourth Wing, the text says his sadistic grin and a red rim around his eyes are all I see as he forces more and more power into my body. the thought is that he's essentially wanted to kill Violet so badly that he already turned Venin in order to try to do that.

But as you pointed out in the last question, now he can't. Or the theory is like he can't.

Jon (25:46)
I mean, that makes a ton of sense hearing you say it because that would also probably explain why he was able to survive a mountain being dropped on him as opposed to a human, a regular human. Fascinating. Smart people out there.

Kristy (25:56)
Exactly.

Yes. Right.

Transitioning. Dain gets a little bit of a redemption in this book. Have you forgiven him? And what did you think about the role he played here?

Jon (26:13)
Okay.

Kristy (26:15)
I remember in our Fourth Wing episode, you're like, fucking Dain.

Jon (26:19)
Yeah, I honestly feel as conflicted about Dain right now as Violet does. Like, I had some pretty strong disdain for him through all of Fourth Wing, which you just mentioned, but my heart, it did soften a little bit for him in this book. know, he didn't have to save Violet or stab Varish. And like, you know, when he finally saw the truth in that moment, he chose to do what was right.

being the rule follower that he has been throughout his entire character arc so far, he knew damn well what the consequences were of attacking someone from leadership like Varish, and he did it anyways. And so I think there's still a healthy amount of skepticism there yet for me, but helping decode the journals, fighting alongside the revolution, he's on the path to redemption in my eyes. So that's what I have to say about that. What about you?

Kristy (27:12)
Unpopular opinion. I think Dain is totally redeemable. I actually feel for him. So yes, he was a big fat jerk in Fourth Wing. However, I'm going to defend him because just like Violet, she

only believed what she believed when she saw it with her own two eyes. Like when the truth was presented to her. Now Dain has been fed a version of the truth his entire life. So it's not that hard to believe that he would think that that is the truth. And when your father is asking you to do something for the...

good of Basgiath for the good of the country, whatever the case may be, why wouldn't you believe him? Like your father is in a position of authority and power and respect. Why would you not trust what he has to say? Even if he wasn't your father, he was just your commanding officer. But when he has the truth presented to him, which he doesn't get at first, know what I mean? Like Violet doesn't...

come back and tell him like what she saw or what's out there, like any of those things. He can only operate with a set of facts that he knows, which Violet continues to advocate for in the book for herself. So why does she expect something different of So I feel for Dain, but I feel like he's being judged a little unfairly because he did some things that seem sketch, but I'm sorry. Like I feel like if you are led to believe a certain thing for the majority of your life,

Jon (28:32)
Yeah.

Kristy (28:48)
and you are fed this and you have no, has no reason to disbelieve it. That's the thing. No reason to disbelieve it. I totally understand why he operated the way that he did. Didn't like it, but understood it.

Jon (29:00)
Right. I feel the same way. I definitely had more understanding and more empathy for him from Fourth Wing. yeah, like I mentioned, I mean, he had a split second to make that decision, which way he was going to go, was he going to kill Violet? And he chose to stab Varish and believe what he saw. Yes. And so.

Kristy (29:18)
But I also think we have moments where he's trying to talk to Violet to understand her point of view and what happened. So I already think the seeds of doubt that there is something out there. Yes, happening. I think he is getting that.

Jon (29:28)
happening.

Yeah, so was Rhi. Rhi was too, yeah. I'm with you. I support this opinion.

Kristy (29:34)
So.

Okay. So you already talked about the journals a little bit, but we learned from those two journals that there are discrepancies between Warrick's and Lyra's accounts. This ends up being the key to raising the wards properly as we learn about the seventh breed of dragon. It seems Navarre has been changing its history for hundreds of years in secret. Given this and those little snippets that we get at the beginning of each chapter,

Do you think this is a series about a story that is ongoing currently or a story that happened in the past?

Jon (30:11)
I think it is a historical recollection.

Kristy (30:14)
which you totally ruined when you talked about Jesinia's part in the beginning.

Jon (30:20)
I don't know that I really pieced it together until obviously a lot later on, but I was catching in moments where like it was written in past tense and that sort of thing. So I'm like, well, that's interesting. The snippets were written in past tense. so it registered, but I didn't really know how to make that connection. But as we get kind of deeper in it and yeah, the conversation we had about just language in general, I do think it's a, it's a recollection of the cost that it took to get to wherever they are.

Kristy (30:31)
The snippets were.

Yeah. So I think that as it says in that one snippet that this has been translated into the modern language by Jesinia, I think that someone is telling this story. Maybe it's Jesinia telling the story or maybe this is just a story and some of these other things are the translation of it. But a lot of it, like you said, it is in like the past tense, like recovered from the record correspondences of Xaden and Violet. And so I think our final book...

may end up with the death of our beloved characters, Xaden and Violet. And this is being told about what happened. Now, I say that because I was reading an interview with Rebecca Yarros about this book and her husband was in the military for many years. I believe he retired from the military. And she said that he has helped her with some of the...

Jon (31:23)
wouldn't surprise.

Kristy (31:44)
I think realness, when you think about war and battles and like people die, you know what mean? Like killing off main characters is something that would happen in real life. So I think that she's tried to be like really true to that. And as much as it pains me and I will hate it, I don't think both Xaden and Violet make it to the end.

Jon (32:07)
Yeah, I don't think so either. think.

Kristy (32:09)
I mean,

you said the Star Wars reference and our three heroes made it through all three movies. So why can't it happen here?

Jon (32:18)
So that's a point.

Because they're Jedi.

Kristy (32:22)
Well, only one of them's a Jedi. Well,

two, technically, but that happened in between somewhere that we don't really find out about. All right, so another thing we learn in this book that might play a part in the larger story is Violet's father was writing a book on Feathertails, which hadn't been seen in hundreds of years, and then Violet ends up bonding a Feathertail. What significance do you feel like that had or has or will have?

Jon (32:30)
That's true, yeah.

So I actually don't, I didn't remember that detail. I don't remember the part where they talk about her dad was writing a book.

Kristy (32:57)
So,

Varish brings it up to her and he says, isn't it ironic that your father was writing a book on Feathertails and then you bonded one? And Violet says, it's a coincidence. It's not ironic, it's a coincidence.

Jon (33:11)
Yeah, I still don't remember that, I believe you. don't know, mean, guess the humans thought that Feathertails were only baby dragons, but it seemed maybe that like Varish had a different theory or he was like trying to tease something out from, you know, try to maybe like prove a theory or something. But I don't know. I feel like it's another nugget that the dragon kind is sort of keeping to themselves.

Kristy (33:34)
I don't think they know that Andarna is a baby though. Yeah, that's the part of like they're keeping her hidden for this reason. Like, that's right. They don't know that she's an adolescent. That's right. Like they just think she's small.

Jon (33:37)
Who, the humans?

that she's small because adolescents don't bond with humans and that would have been super rare. Right. Yeah, that's right.

Kristy (33:55)
think

the significance of this being brought up in the book is that her dad knows a lot. Sure. When you find out what you find out at the end of the book that Andarna is a seventh breed of dragons, you're like, her father knows a lot, which is why I think her father is now dead. And I think that what Violet's mother, what General Sorrengail said to Violet is like, I knew if you went in the Scribe Quadrant, you're so smart that you would find out what you found out.

and then they would kill you for it. And I think that's what happened to her father. That's what we're going to find out.

Jon (34:27)
Yeah, that's a great thing.

Yeah, that would make a lot of sense.

Kristy (34:32)
So we know Violet, so talking about dragons, we know she has bonded two dragons and that she's going to get a second signet. Rebecca Yarrow said in an interview that every single hint you need to know about what that second signet is is an iron flame. So do you have any thoughts about what Violet's second signet is?

Jon (34:51)
I do.

I do have some theories, some more plausible than others. so one of my first thoughts that I had on that was like, maybe it's the power of foresight sort of like Melgren. And I felt that from like her, I was thinking maybe her nightmares were premonitions or foreshadowing of the future or something like that. like the power of foresight, I think could be one. A second theory is that maybe given her like deep rooted need for knowledge there, could be like a

a truth telling or ability to detect someone lying or something like that. Not quite like an intrinsic, but something in that vein.

Kristy (35:34)
You think there was something in Iron Flame though that led you to believe that? her behavior or something she did?

Jon (35:39)
No, just that like her need for knowledge. I thought maybe it was like

Kristy (35:44)
I'm not saying you're wrong. Yeah. Probably a little more. Yeah.

Jon (35:45)
No, right. know. I think that like, because of what?

Okay, that's fair. Okay, so my last one is a little bit more absurd, but through the end of the book, as we're learning about Andarna, her scales are iridescent and almost looks like she can blend in with the background, with the stone or the force. There were a couple of times where Violet couldn't even see her. So what if she's a shape-shifter, like Mystique in the X-Men or something? What if she could completely change the shape of who she represents?

I think that's a little out there, but that's a vibe that I was getting from that part of the book.

Kristy (36:24)
That would be bad as hell. I think we talked about The Sage being in her dreams and maybe that's actually not a dream, but some kind of something through the bond. But I thought, well, then that's not necessarily a signet because Xaden is also having these nightmares. But if it is through the bond somehow that she can talk, you know, communicate to this other person, maybe that explains it. The other thought I had was when she's hope.

Jon (36:26)
It would be cool as hell.

Kristy (36:54)
like I'll say quote unquote hallucinating Liam. What if they're not hallucinations and she can speak to people from the dead?

Jon (37:05)
That's pretty wild too. I think that would be, man.

Kristy (37:08)
But

I think that I say this because we have snippets from her father that I think are going to be important. What if she isn't being able to communicate with her dad and all he knows, which we're going to get to. we're going to get to. have a question.

Jon (37:24)
I kind of love this theory. Okay, let's yes, let's we should post these up on like our wall or something and then see if you write and Yeah, just keep checking them off

Kristy (37:31)
Nope, nope. Yeah,

so like not right, not right. Probably nothing we're saying is correct. I do believe you cannot convince me otherwise, though, that her father is going to play a significant role in what happens. I don't think he's alive. Don't get me wrong. I definitely think he's dead. But I think he knows a lot of information that ended up getting him killed, which leads me to my next question for you. All right. So let's talk about General Sorrengail, who dies in this book.

Jon (37:57)
Okay.

Kristy (38:01)
In our Fourth Wing episode, I mentioned that I thought there was more to General Sorrengail and that she's maybe not as ruthless as she's being portrayed and that her motives are more altruistic than maybe we think. And we see her sacrifice herself for her children and for the revolution. But do you feel like this book changed your opinion of her?

What? Really? Are you serious? It's like, are you fucking kidding me?

Jon (38:28)
No, I'm not serious.

Yeah, I mean, similar to Dain, it gave me so much more understanding and like empathy for her motivations and why she was doing it. I still think she's ruthless. I still think she

Kristy (38:46)
I

think she has to be in her position.

Jon (38:48)
Yeah,

I guess you have to be ruthless in order to become a general of a dragon riding war college. You can't be soft and fuzzy.

Kristy (38:55)
Cadets

are dying every day that you're responsible for. It's just hard. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Jon (39:00)
It gave me a lot more empathy and understanding her motivations as it was unfolding. I remembered what you said in our Fourth Wing episode about how she has a role to play or a bigger role to play. Sure. That we got to learn more about her and that there was Star Wars reference. There was good in her yet that Violet was able to pull forward.

Kristy (39:21)
Hahaha

So she's she being General Sorrengail. She says in the book, there's nothing I wouldn't do to keep you safe. Everything was to get you to this moment when you'd be strong enough. She's speaking to Violet and she says, you're everything we dreamed you would be all three of you. And she's referring to Violet and then her siblings, Mira and Brennan. I that that line, the everything was to get you to this moment. That makes me think.

That is why Violet is in the Rider's quadrant because of what she said previously that there is no way you could have gone to scribe quadrant. They would have killed you. So we knew you had to go into the Rider's Quadrant. I think the we there for me, and this is not in the book, this is me, these are my thoughts, is that Violet's father uncovered some of these things that Violet's mother, what's Violet's mom's name?

Jon (40:21)
General Sorrengail...

Kristy (40:23)
She has a name. Lilith. Lilith. I was like, it's not General Sorrengail It's Lilith. Violet's father, I think, uncovered some of these things that is why Violet's mother knew that Violet would do the same thing. So I think he found out things as a scribe. He was either killed for it, died for it in some way. We don't learn, to my knowledge of my remembrance of Fourth Wing we don't learn how he died.

Jon (40:43)
and he was killed for it.

Yeah, I don't think so.

Kristy (40:53)
Violet's

mother calls him the love of her life. I think she's genuine in that. Violet has been led to believe that Lilla thinks that nothing is above Riders, that they're the best, that blah, blah, blah. But she says to her, no, a scribe is the love of my life. I know that there's value in that. That's not why I put you in the Rider's Quadrant. I put you in the Rider's Quadrant because I knew they would kill you because you're smart enough to...

figure all the shit that's going on. I think that's why we're going to find out her father died. He uncovered these truths about a seventh breed of dragon that is a purple dragon that her name is a violet. I think they named her violet because of this. Andarna says, I waited for you. I waited 650 years for you. So I just think that him and Lilith made a plan.

How do we get our children to this moment where they have bonded dragons, they're in power? Remember when they first tried to put the wards stone up, the wards up in Aretia three of the six dragons that they have are Sorrengails So like how do we get our children to be like the most powerful riders plus the knowledge and smarts that Violet has? Yes, plus.

Jon (42:03)
Yeah, right.

And put him in positions of power.

Kristy (42:15)
another rider on their side in Xaden who is also very powerful with a very powerful dragon. Like I think she's saying everything that I and your father worked for was to get right here and I'm willing to die for this moment because it will be worth it.

Jon (42:32)
Okay, I'm tracking, I'm with you.

Kristy (42:34)
I think that there is so much more that we're gonna learn that her father already learned and it was to get to right here. It's like when Scarlett Johansson and Hawkeye, or sorry, it's when Black Widow and Hawkeye are trying to get the soul stone and she's like, all I've been trying to do for the last five years is get right here to this moment.

Jon (42:55)
Yeah, that's a good reference. Nicely done.

Kristy (42:58)
All right, so I basically just spoiled this question, not even realizing it was my next question. But near the end of the book, we find out that Andarna is a secret slash long forgotten seven type of dragon. We've already mentioned that. And that she says she's waited 650 years to hatch so that she could specifically bond with Violet. What did you think of that reveal?

Jon (43:21)
So I think they have a lot more foresight than we've probably understood of them to have. I think it also sort of maps to one of the theories I was saying about a signet and just like also about how if anyone's puppeteering this thing, I think it could be the dragons. It is super interesting that she's now the only one of this particular breed, which makes her the matriarch and gives her.

Kristy (43:30)
that kind

about her signet.

We

know all.

Jon (43:50)
that we know of and it gives her, power in the Empyrean. Does she like take over for all the old guy dragons and like, you know, start a new dragon? And like start a new dragon order alongside Violet in the human world. it's just another Easter egg, no pun intended.

Kristy (44:16)
It's another dragon egg.

Jon (44:19)
a seed planted for a deeper story in future books and it was clearly intentional.

Kristy (44:27)
Also, this question, I said this in our last, like, big discussion when we talking about her parents, but Tairn reveals that Violet's supposed to be his last rider. So, what did you think of that? And do you feel like the dragons are playing a role that we don't know about it yet?

Jon (44:48)
Yeah, I definitely think the second part, I think the dragons are playing something we don't know. I mean, the obvious answer is that he or she dies causing the other to die. either like, Tairn dies and then Violet dies or vice versa.

Kristy (45:03)
That leads

into your foresight second signet. Yes. Well, if you're saying if Tairn thinks you're supposed to be my last rider, maybe that he knows that he's going to be the one to die, which would kill her. But he has seen that for himself or maybe, I don't know, like the dragons communicate in ways we don't know. maybe that leads to your theory about her signet being

Jon (45:08)
It, course it does. Explain to me.

Kristy (45:33)
you know, a future seer.

Jon (45:34)
Yeah, maybe. I mean, or maybe he like, he sacrifices himself in a certain way, sort of like the way her mom did, you know, for them. And it would, unless she's so powerful that, you know, she, cause we already know that some dragon.

Kristy (45:43)
That's gonna kill her though.

It won't

Jon (45:55)
Right,

but there's also, we already know that some dragons don't die when their riders die. Some of them older dragons or whatever, because some of them have had previous riders.

Kristy (46:05)
No, no, no, no, no, no. But if your dragon dies, you die. It can go one. You can die. But if the dragon dies, you die, which is how Liam died. Yeah. And that's what they thought was going to happen to Jack because Jack kills his own fucking dragon, but he doesn't because he's been in. I think that's what it's leading up to, I think. Right. The Sage has said you or you will turn. Well, for something a lot, I forget what he says, but.

Jon (46:10)
I can't go the other way.

Yeah, okay.

So Violet becomes venin.

for the ones you love.

Kristy (46:35)
Okay, so besides all the ones that we've talked about, do you have any other predictions for Onyx Storm?

Jon (46:43)
I was going to answer this question with a joke, but I couldn't think of one. I was going to start off with like, Xaden, Jack Barlow and The Sage walk into a bar. I couldn't think of how to like, yeah, there's no punchline to it. It's so hard to predict anything because there's no way I could have predicted much of anything that happened in this book after I got done with Fourth Wing.

Kristy (46:50)
You

predicted a lot or we've just said like what we think is coming. I mean, and again, I don't think all these things might come in on a storm, but I think we might see some of these things in the series. I do think we're going to learn a lot more about our father in Onyx Storm. So.

Jon (47:09)
Sure, that's fair.

So

what are yours? Like, what do you sort of think? What do you foresee happening? Or what would you like to see?

Kristy (47:27)
No, I just said I think we're going to learn a lot more about her father and the significance of some of the stuff he was researching. Maybe we learn why he died. We're obviously going to learn more, a lot more about venin and what that means and how they survive and what happens when you turn venin. Yeah, Andarna, what the den is. Are there more of them? Are they just not hatched yet? What happened to them?

Jon (47:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean.

Kristy (47:57)
I

remember in that in that one journal, they intentionally said they they they misdirected future readers to say there are only six six in Lyra. This was one of those little snippets. If you're paying attention, Lyra says, I thought we should share the truth with everyone and it has cost me everything. So she thought that they should say there are seven dens. She does in her book. So there were people in the beginning of.

when all this started that didn't agree with the direction that Navarre ended up going. Would you recommend this book to our listeners?

Jon (48:30)
Yeah.

What a beast. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. It's so good. It's so long, but it's so good. You really got to keep it.

Kristy (48:46)
My story is

a little shorter.

Jon (48:49)
24 hours instead of 28, I think you said.

Kristy (48:51)
Yeah, so it is a little longer than Fourth Wing, but a little shorter than Onyx Storm. My problem is I'm going to read it and then when the fourth one comes out, I'm going to want to reread it. I'm like, that's a long time.

Jon (49:03)
I know. Yeah, for reals. Maybe when the next one comes out, we'll do it for our first episode of whatever season that is to keep the trend.

Kristy (49:11)
I do already have a plan for season three in the fall. So, all right. Well, we wanted to remind everyone that the next two books in our lineup are The Crash by Freida McFadden and The Women by Kristin Hannah. And if you go to our website or Instagram page, you will find that we actually have the complete lineup of books for season two posted there. So you can get ahead and you don't have to just wait till we air them on the episodes. And don't forget that a free way to support our show.

is by leaving us a review and rating us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. And if you don't want to us, but you have a question or you have feedback on the show, you can always email us at booksandmakemyhusbandread @gmail.com. And we would love to hear from you.

Jon (49:53)
You would, I wouldn't.

Kristy (49:57)
All right, guess that's it though. That is another one in the books. But who knows, maybe this will be the one your husband reads. Bye bye, take care. Say goodnight, John-boy.

Jon (50:01)
There's another one in the book!

Welcome to season two.

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